Is this the end of Leica as we know it?

[Tuolumne]

If you want to see absurd amounts spent on a hobby look at fishing. Leicas are a bargain compared to what people spend on boats, rods, reels, tackle, and other gear.

 

[Austerby]

If you want to see absurd amounts spent on a hobby look at fishing. Leicas are a bargain compared to what people spend on boats, rods, reels, tackle, and other gear.

Actually, my other "passion" (as hobbies seem to be called nowadays) is sailing - that does make Leica's comparative bargains but unfortunately the monthly disposable has its limits when one's pride and joy needs antifouling...

I note that "leaks" on the yacht forums I also frequent have a different significance from those discussed here.

 

[Al Patterson]

Is our little world about to be changed forever? What happened to that nice little company that produced flawed masterpieces which only us as cognescenti truly appreciated - what happens when that company produces items of such quality and attractiveness that hoi polloi in their thousands buy and use them!?!

Time to get interested in Alpa, or Horseman, or Linhof I think....

If Leica can sell a lot of the new electronic toys that will be a good thing as long as they keep making the M7 and MP as well.

 

[sepiareverb]

http://www.alpa.ch/index.php

As fine as the website is, the paper catalog is even better. Well worth the hassle of signing up at the ALPA site. They don't ever email me despite asking for an address.

 

[Keith]

If Leica can sell a lot of the new electronic toys that will be a good thing as long as they keep making the M7 and MP as well.

The 'electronic toy' as you describe it now almost totally dominates photography and has forced film into it's niche corner at an ever increasing rate.

No wonder Leica suddenly seem keen to mess around with these 'toys' on a somewhat larger scale! 😀

 

[Roger Hicks]

Fred,

The *median* **household** income in 2007 dollars was about $50k.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/United_States_Income_Distribution_1947-2007.svg

Numbers straight out of the Census Bureau. It almost certainly went down this year. That graph is also interesting because you see clearly that the income gap between the top 5% and "middle class" America has been growing steadily. It is a very asymmetric distribution just looking at the jump between 80% and 95%

But the median is still the best measure of the middle class - the Americans of limited means you refer to.

A $7k Leica is about 14% of the median household income. Do you really expect most Americans of limited means to spend this much on a camera. It is an order of magnitude off. This is why P&S and DSLRs sell.
The income for which a $7000 purchase is just a few percent is right at the top of that graph. Where there aren't that many people.

I'm not arguing that people buy expensive cars or couches, or that they get mortgages on entire houses that are well beyond their means. I think we all know how that worked out.

I'm also sure a lot of people who call themselves middle class are really well above the median.

Cheers,
-Gautham

Dear Gautham,

All that you say is absolutely correct, and the last sentence is especially worth noting.

But of course, income is only half the story. The other half is expenditure and debt.

Consider a couple with no children, living in a house they either inherited or paid off years ago, with a modest lifestyle and no other debt. Compare them with a couple with three children, a mortgage and a gullible tendency to believe advertisements, credit card deals ('only X% interest for 6 months'), etc.

Edit: a further thought. Michael Koetzle in his introduction to Tashen's 1000 Nudes refers to Daguerrotypes in about 1860 as "quite expensive . . . A single nude represented an investment of a week's average salary". Of course it didn't work that way. With enormous differentials in both wealth and income, a "week's average salary" was an all but meaningless concept in 1860, and with today's rising differentials between rich and poor (both of whom are likely to call themselves 'middle class', especially in the United States) the affordability of an M9 to the 'middle class' is much higher for some and much lower for others.

Cheers,

R.

 

[SixPM]

They had to kill the company in order to save the company.

/T

Totally agree, after I attend the M9 launch and the message from the management team have given me was about money and nothing more. All our modern companies and corporations are so money oriented, that their core values, intentions and motives are totally distorted from the old we once knew.

 

[JohnTF]

Clearly we need two things. The first is background checks and a literacy test for photography for those wanting to buy Leicas. That will weed out those nasty smelly masses. Perhaps a test of Greek and Latin too.

The second is higher prices. That will make Leicas much less attractive to the public.

It might be necessary to require that cognoscenti undertake a pilgrimage to the Fatherland to receive their Leica. Those who are unworthy can be shot at the border (with their oversized Nipponese SLRs). Thus shall we protect the world of Wetzlar from the stampeding feet of the hoi polloi.

You must excuse me for now. My tongue needs extracting. It appears to be jammed in my cheek.

Well, you may be in trouble, as my Dentist just made a reservation on a flight to Solms, and I understand they have a new duty free desk. I have heard rumors of a Dentist shortage in the coming weeks. ;-)

 

[FallisPhoto]

If you want to see absurd amounts spent on a hobby look at fishing. Leicas are a bargain compared to what people spend on boats, rods, reels, tackle, and other gear.

Well, let's see. I do both. I have a boat (probably worth $2000), about 10 rods (worth maybe another $200), reels to go with the rods (maybe worth another $400), about another $1000 in tackle, then let's figure on about another $500 in licenses, bait and so on (for a year); add $1200 in docking fees and that comes to about $5300. There are also things like tavel expenses, but you have pretty much the same expenses with photography.

I've easily got 2-3 times that in cameras, lenses, lights, meters, enlargers, timers, paper, film, a refrigerator to keep the film and paper in, dustproof bookcases to keep the cameras in, trays, tongs, chemicals and other darkroom accessories and so on. Then there are modelling fees on top of that.

 

[AutumnJazz]

Is our little world about to be changed forever? What happened to that nice little company that produced flawed masterpieces which only us as cognescenti truly appreciated - what happens when that company produces items of such quality and attractiveness that hoi polloi in their thousands buy and use them!?!

Time to get interested in Alpa, or Horseman, or Linhof I think....

Isn't Leica heading in the opposite direction? Your average under-30 doesn't even know what a Leica is. They barely know who Canon and Nikon are. What niché do Leicas fit anymore? Who really cares about an APS-C pocket cam? Who cares about the M9? Not pros. Not most people. People on this forum? Me? Sure.

 

[JohnTF]

Well, let's see. I do both. I have a boat (probably worth $2000), about 10 rods (worth maybe another $200), reels to go with the rods (maybe worth another $400), about another $1000 in tackle, then let's figure on about another $500 in licenses, bait and so on (for a year); add $1200 in docking fees and that comes to about $5300. There are also things like tavel expenses, but you have pretty much the same expenses with photography.

I've easily got 2-3 times that in cameras, lenses, lights, meters, enlargers, timers, paper, film, a refrigerator to keep the film and paper in, dustproof bookcases to keep the cameras in, trays, tongs, chemicals and other darkroom accessories and so on. Then there are modelling fees on top of that.

I stopped collecting fishing reels after about 200 of them.

My saltwater spin casting rig was a bargain at a bit more than $150, a good modern solid brass salt water reel is $1000 and up, a good boat rod is more than $100, and I fish from a rented $50,000 30 foot dual inboard diesel boat at about $200 for fuel per day, plus the crew. Larger lures run about $30 each, and to swap out the line on the reels is $250.

Amounts to pretty expensive dinners, a sailfish mount is close to $2000 and up. ;-)

I did shoot some whale photos with my M8 and a 90mm Elmarit.

Regards, John

 

[FallisPhoto]

I stopped collecting fishing reels after about 200 of them.

My saltwater spin casting rig was a bargain at a bit more than $150, a good modern solid brass salt water reel is $1000 and up, a good boat rod is more than $100, and I fish from a rented $50,000 30 foot dual inboard diesel boat at about $200 for fuel per day, plus the crew. Larger lures run about $30 each, and to swap out the line on the reels is $250.

Amounts to pretty expensive dinners, a sailfish mount is close to $2000 and up. ;-)

I did shoot some whale photos with my M8 and a 90mm Elmarit.

Regards, John

Well, I'm not a collector of fishing paraphernelia, I just use it. A few good reels on medium/heavy action rods (landlocked stripers, largemouth and white bass), a couple of light rigs for trout and crappie, a surf casting outfit, a small collapsable outfit I can keep stowed in the truck for "emergencies," and a heavy boat rod seems to cover pretty much everything.

ON the other hand, I do have over 100 cameras.

 

[JohnTF]

Well, I'm not a collector of fishing paraphernelia, I just use it. A few good reels on medium/heavy action rods (landlocked stripers, largemouth and white bass), a couple of light rigs for trout and crappie, a surf casting outfit, a small collapsable outfit I can keep stowed in the truck for "emergencies," and a heavy boat rod seems to cover pretty much everything.

ON the other hand, I do have over 100 cameras.

When you say heavy action rods, does that mean you are using 80 lb. line? ;-)

My light rod in Mexico is marked medium/heavy and it has only 40 lb. on the spool. I did catch a couple of sails on 30 lb. and lost a marlin on 80 lb.

20-40 lb. Dorado and Snapper give me a big fight on the spinning rig. I thought if the rod snaps, I can get a photo of the pieces.

With the marlin I was thinking "we need a bigger boat".

I know what you mean about the cameras, I have you by a few there. I too am not a collector of cameras, though I only use a few, the others are merely resting until I get around to them. ;-)


I think the relatives are planning an intervention. ;-)

As to the M9, if someone of middle class wants one, it will take some financial figuring, but probably close to a percentage of pay of say an M4 in its day, give or take, perhaps a third of a modest car?

I am surprised at people of middle class driving a new Lexus, but it is a choice.

I do not think Leica is planning on any "Cash for Clunkers" deals.


Regards, John