rsl
Russell
Not in Colorado in the winter!
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Ben Z
Veteran
jaapv said:
First of all, I hope you're not proposing it a reasonable economic strategy to buy a second M8 to get 2 more free filters
Second, I own twelve lenses, all older and bought used and several are Voitlanders so I probably didn't spend as much for all of them as it would cost for two new Leica lenses today. Third, take a look at the prices for those 486 filters at B&H, in the US where I live and buy things. Last, so far the only IR filters that have been clearly marked "MRC" are the ones Sean got from Leica, and I will not spend a dime on single-coated filters. I shudder to think how much those non-free Leica filters will cost but unless I could be sure the ones I'd get from B&H were MRC I wouldn't buy the B+W's. So $1000 is actually a little on the conservative side, if you really want as flare-resistant a band-aid for the M8 as possible.Ben Z
Veteran
Sailor Ted said:
Resorting to a juvenile personal attack is either a sign you've run out of intelligent points to support your opinion, or else that you think this is photo.net
BTW, the notion that only "synthetic" black fabric is affected by the IR is a fiction created by Leica's PR department to minimize the ubiquitousness of the problem. There are numerous other things that are thrown off including "natural" black fabric, certain metallic objects, and green foliage in daylight, to name just a few.
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jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Ben, I started the plastic tuxedo thing, it was tongue in cheek.... But really, don't you think this IR filter thing is a fact of life by now that one either accepts or does not accept. I think all points on both sides have been made by now and we are starting to go round in circles.
Ben Z
Veteran
True, but I think Leica should be aware that they are losing an enormous number of sales as a result, a lot more than they lost by having a cropped sensor with the same number of megapixels as a Rebel XTi and much poorer high-ISO noise. That much even I was willing to accept in return for its other virtues. And looking at Leica's history, they really need to be bombarded from every direction with lots of noise and flashing lights to wake up just as they're teetering once again at the brink of bankruptcy. I'm a lot more loyal to Leica than those who accept and praise the shameful way they've pawned off these filters as a so-called fix, or point to the current waiting lists as an indicator of enduring demand for the camera as-is. When the temporary backlog clears in 2-3 months, I'm sadly sure you'll see sales of the M8 will fall off rapidly to a trickle.
ywenz
Veteran
I agree that synethetic black fabric is not the only problematic items for the M8. Just look at all the new owners on the Leica user forum with their "look at this great image from my M8" threads when in reality it is merely a poor picture that is a perfect example of the M8's IR problem and there was no synthetic black fabric at all in the image.
http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/12968-last-m8-arrived.html
http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/12968-last-m8-arrived.html
AusDLK
Famous Photographer
Oh, the M8 war of words has reignited...
My opinion has been voiced here many times and I, like Athena, caught a lot of grief.
I just wonder why some owner(s) are so strongly compelled to shout out their praise and to question the intelligence of and insult the critics whenever critical comments appear here.
I have some theories but I don't want to fan the flames any more.
In any event , I think that the proof is in the pudding -- that is to say the pictures that the M8 lovers take.
I suggest that when someone slams the M8 (or M8 owners) in the future that those who feel compelled to react defensively do so with all of the wonderful photographs they have taken -- not with words.
My opinion has been voiced here many times and I, like Athena, caught a lot of grief.
I just wonder why some owner(s) are so strongly compelled to shout out their praise and to question the intelligence of and insult the critics whenever critical comments appear here.
I have some theories but I don't want to fan the flames any more.
In any event , I think that the proof is in the pudding -- that is to say the pictures that the M8 lovers take.
I suggest that when someone slams the M8 (or M8 owners) in the future that those who feel compelled to react defensively do so with all of the wonderful photographs they have taken -- not with words.
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AusDLK
Famous Photographer
As for waiting lists...
As of yesterday afternoon, Precision Camera in Austin has a black M8 sitting forlornly in its display case.
The demand in Austin apparently isn't that strong.
Give them a call at 866-802-8500 if this one has your name on it.
As of yesterday afternoon, Precision Camera in Austin has a black M8 sitting forlornly in its display case.
The demand in Austin apparently isn't that strong.
Give them a call at 866-802-8500 if this one has your name on it.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
One of the things that concerns me about all this is that if I buy an M8 and like it ... I'm seen as a zealot trying to justify the expense! If I criticise the camera without owning it I'm a tosser! If I own it but don't like it I'm an outcast! If I like it but don't own it I'm a dreamer .... there's nowhere to go!
AusDLK
Famous Photographer
>I buy an M8 and like it ... I'm seen as a zealot trying to justify the expense!
Not if you let your photographs do the talking...
Not if you let your photographs do the talking...
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
AusDLK said:
But what if I'm just a crap photographer and feel self conscious about it?
K
Ken Tanaka
Guest
Keith novak said:One of the things that concerns me about all this is that if I buy an M8 and like it ... I'm seen as a zealot trying to justify the expense! If I criticise the camera without owning it I'm a tosser! If I own it but don't like it I'm an outcast! If I like it but don't own it I'm a dreamer .... there's nowhere to go!
Now that's the funniest, and perhaps most insightful, comment I've seen here!
Think carefully as you pick your pox.
ferider
Veteran
Keith novak said:One of the things that concerns me about all this is that if I buy an M8 and like it ... I'm seen as a zealot trying to justify the expense! If I criticise the camera without owning it I'm a tosser! If I own it but don't like it I'm an outcast! If I like it but don't own it I'm a dreamer .... there's nowhere to go!
Good point, Keith, good point
And you are not a "crap photographer", I like your postal lady, her Rottie, and the guy on the deck !
There is a whole bunch of good photographers on RFF who have apparently bought the camera and just use it, without many comments in the M8 threads ....
Check with blakely, gabrielma, furcafe, etc. Cann't wait for their gallery updates !
Roland.
willie_901
Veteran
ywenz said:
You are certainly correct.
A careful examination the M8's color space response in the Luminous Landscape's initial M8 review, reveals the black ---> magenta problem is not the only IR/color problem in M8 images.
willie
HAnkg
Well-known
Picking out a crappy photo that's been posted online as proof that the M8 is crap is a bit lame, as there are millions of crappy photos on the net taken with every make and model of camera in existense. By that standard all cameras suck.
If you want to compare, ask someone for the raw files of a few well taken images and put them up against anything out there. They will hold up fine. As to performance at 3200 or 2500 ISO. I rarely used anything but ISO100 slide film in 35mm as 400+ color neg looked nasty in such a small format, by comparison the M8's 640ISO is excellent.
As someone else said the filters are either acceptable to you or not. The image quality is there, if the ergonomics of the camera (filters and all) work for you it's an excellent tool. Costs more then a 5D? so does the 1DS and 1Ds MKII and in print you'd rarely be able to tell the difference. I don't get the over the top hyperbole (on both sides) when it comes to discussing a lowly device for taking pictures. Leica set out to produce a digital M and they did it, not well enough for some because of price, or not being full frame or the filter requirements or the shutter sound. But I think it likely will be good enough for enough photographers to keep Leica digital development going.
Are the buyers dupes, no -are those that feel the camera doesn't float their boat in present configuration idiots, no. There are a million reasons for choosing to buy or not buy any particular tool. Different strokes -can't we all just get along
If you want to compare, ask someone for the raw files of a few well taken images and put them up against anything out there. They will hold up fine. As to performance at 3200 or 2500 ISO. I rarely used anything but ISO100 slide film in 35mm as 400+ color neg looked nasty in such a small format, by comparison the M8's 640ISO is excellent.
As someone else said the filters are either acceptable to you or not. The image quality is there, if the ergonomics of the camera (filters and all) work for you it's an excellent tool. Costs more then a 5D? so does the 1DS and 1Ds MKII and in print you'd rarely be able to tell the difference. I don't get the over the top hyperbole (on both sides) when it comes to discussing a lowly device for taking pictures. Leica set out to produce a digital M and they did it, not well enough for some because of price, or not being full frame or the filter requirements or the shutter sound. But I think it likely will be good enough for enough photographers to keep Leica digital development going.
Are the buyers dupes, no -are those that feel the camera doesn't float their boat in present configuration idiots, no. There are a million reasons for choosing to buy or not buy any particular tool. Different strokes -can't we all just get along
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Ywenz, I don't think you can use somebody else's tottering first steps on the digital road this way. Quite apart from the fact that we all started off with crappy digital photo's, there is such a thing as copyright.
AusDLK
Famous Photographer
>But what if I'm just a crap photographer and feel self conscious about it?
Then enjoy your cameras and keep quiet about it!
Then enjoy your cameras and keep quiet about it!
TJV
Well-known
My two cents after reading this thread and thinking it rather silly:
I bought an M8 as it's the only tool in the digital realm that I'd actually enjoy using and working with. It cast the same as my M7 did two years ago and I can use all my lenses on it. I always use a UV filter and have not once lost a shot because of reflections and/or flare. This may be a different story in the digital realm because of the reflective coating on the CCD, but, practically, I don' t see this being a problem for to warrent a compromise on my part and moving to a DSLR system I'd loath to carry 100% of the time like I do with my M7.
As I said in one of my first posts on this forum, I love using a rangefinder system. Picking up the M8, after worrying for years about the cost involved in shooting trannies (New Zealand prices are insane) rocking around with a digital equivilent was invigorating to say the least. It made me smile. That's why I bought it.
Tim
I bought an M8 as it's the only tool in the digital realm that I'd actually enjoy using and working with. It cast the same as my M7 did two years ago and I can use all my lenses on it. I always use a UV filter and have not once lost a shot because of reflections and/or flare. This may be a different story in the digital realm because of the reflective coating on the CCD, but, practically, I don' t see this being a problem for to warrent a compromise on my part and moving to a DSLR system I'd loath to carry 100% of the time like I do with my M7.
As I said in one of my first posts on this forum, I love using a rangefinder system. Picking up the M8, after worrying for years about the cost involved in shooting trannies (New Zealand prices are insane) rocking around with a digital equivilent was invigorating to say the least. It made me smile. That's why I bought it.
Tim
Harry Lime
Practitioner
tedwhite said:
You just described me. A pile of M, R, LTM and Rolleiflex gear and a Nikon 9000ED scanner. Get the Nikon 5000 or SCS5000ED if you are only scanning 35mm.
Last year I bought a Canon 5D and ended up selling it after 6 months. I prefered the look of Tri-X and I missed my small and unobtrusive M cameras. The 5D is a great camera, but it just wasn't for me.
HL
Harry Lime
Practitioner
I don't think the M8 is as seriously flawed, as it is made out to be.
Obviously the IR issue is the biggest hurdle, but this problem can be completely solved with an IR filter. Not a perfect solution, but given the choice between having to use a filter and not having the M8, I'll take the filter- thank you very much. If you only shoot B/W the IR problem may not even be an issue.
Bugs in the firmware? Annoying, but not a show stopper. These issues will be ironed out with time.
If anything really bothers me it's the lack of weather sealing (yes, I know that I sound like a broken record), but I suppose I could learn to live with that also.
Personally I think it's a minor miracle that Leica got the M8 as right as they did. Not bad for a dinky little company with no resources and little experience in this area. Jolly good show indeed.
If I was rich or if travel with film became totally impossible, I would run out and get an M8 tomorrow. But frankly I'm in love with Tri-X and my Nikon 9000ED magically transports me into the digital age. So, for the moment I really don't have a good reason to get one, but you never know what the future holds.
Obviously the IR issue is the biggest hurdle, but this problem can be completely solved with an IR filter. Not a perfect solution, but given the choice between having to use a filter and not having the M8, I'll take the filter- thank you very much. If you only shoot B/W the IR problem may not even be an issue.
Bugs in the firmware? Annoying, but not a show stopper. These issues will be ironed out with time.
If anything really bothers me it's the lack of weather sealing (yes, I know that I sound like a broken record), but I suppose I could learn to live with that also.
Personally I think it's a minor miracle that Leica got the M8 as right as they did. Not bad for a dinky little company with no resources and little experience in this area. Jolly good show indeed.
If I was rich or if travel with film became totally impossible, I would run out and get an M8 tomorrow. But frankly I'm in love with Tri-X and my Nikon 9000ED magically transports me into the digital age. So, for the moment I really don't have a good reason to get one, but you never know what the future holds.