It's time for some Leica speculation fun...

GeorgeH said:
Sooner or later, even the "more money than sense" crowd is going to realize that Leica is selling them outdated technology at outrageous prices. Like it or not, it's not just the lens that matters where digital is concerned. You only get one sensor when you buy digital, the game has changed and Leica is very far behind the curve.
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I'd have to agree to some extent. I wonder how long Leica can continue to sell a camera design that's getting on 60 years old. Much as I like Ms, as some point the design will be a glorious dead-end...maybe it is already.

But if they do discontinue the M, the "traditionalists," as I call them, will howl. I mean, the fact that Leica came out with a monochrome M means they realize they are still in the thrall of those who believe that an M should be used ONLY for shooting B&W...just like Cartier-Bresson & David Douglas Duncan in the good old days. And that's presuming that these folks have been convinced that a Leica is legit even if it DOESN'T use film and DOES have autoexposure. Yeah, I'll admit there is a certain Luddite mindset among the Cult of Leica...

Sometimes I think Leica needs two lines of flagship cameras--the "traditional" M, for those who want it, and then a line that offers a little more "contemporary" pro-level camera with state-of-the -art features (maybe MFT?), for those who want Leica quality, but aren't interested in "tradition"--and maybe even sell it at a competitive price.
 
can someone explain to me the point in criticising Leica's market and product decisions? I mean, the current management seems to have been able to actually make money with a company that traditionally lost money for decades.
Now, if what you want is a different type of product, more feature-loaded, more modern, supported by a huge R&D budget, then the alternatives exist out there in the market.
Canon, Nikon, now also Fuji and Olympus, are churning out new models every year, competing all the time.
 
emiguevara said:
can someone explain to me the point in criticising Leica's market and product decisions? I mean, the current management seems to have been able to actually make money with a company that traditionally lost money for decades.
Now, if what you want is a different type of product, more feature-loaded, more modern, supported by a huge R&D budget, then the alternatives exist out there in the market.
Canon, Nikon, now also Fuji and Olympus, are churning out new models every year, competing all the time.
Click to expand...


Its about turning away from the photographer towards richie rich people like sheikhs and Chinese big players, to name a few. Canon and Nikon, and also Fuji and Olympus produce for actual working pro-photographers and also the regular hobbyist.

My personal "problem" is that there's absolutely no sense in making a camera that has limited function range even more expensive than one without that limitation. That's purely insane, but people love and buy it (apart from that lame blogger and workshop gang).
 
emiguevara said:
can someone explain to me the point in criticising Leica's market and product decisions? I mean, the current management seems to have been able to actually make money with a company that traditionally lost money for decades.
Now, if what you want is a different type of product, more feature-loaded, more modern, supported by a huge R&D budget, then the alternatives exist out there in the market.
Canon, Nikon, now also Fuji and Olympus, are churning out new models every year, competing all the time.
Click to expand...

Why not?
It's the only way for customers/potential customers to let a company know what they want. Hell, smart companies like nothing more than to get feedback (positive and negative) from sites like this.
 
emiguevara said:
can someone explain to me the point in criticising Leica's market and product decisions? I mean, the current management seems to have been able to actually make money with a company that traditionally lost money for decades.
Now, if what you want is a different type of product, more feature-loaded, more modern, supported by a huge R&D budget, then the alternatives exist out there in the market.
Canon, Nikon, now also Fuji and Olympus, are churning out new models every year, competing all the time.
Click to expand...


Because I can?

My concern is that if Leica keeps playing to the "traditional," it may become a a grand and glorious anachronism. I would hate to see that happen. As I pointed out, it almost happened once before, when Leica failed to see that the SLR was the coming thing, and scrambled to play catch-up. I love the SL2, but even so, it's obvious Leica was behind the curve when that came out--given that the compact, auto-exposure OM-2 was on the horizon.....

The irony here is that Leica was the originator of many of the features of state of the art cameras today--autofocus, for one, if I am correct. And as I said, I'm not for eliminating the M altogether--but I do think for Leica to stay in the game, it would be a good idea to have an alternative, state of the art, pro-model flagship camera.

Wouldn't want to see Leica go the way of the Dusenberg automobile...
 
Oops Dave...forgot the smiley for mine (to clarify that I was joking). I truly do not think Leica needs a flagship model. With its stores, they now just need to have product on the shelves. Do niche / luxury companies have a flagship model? or do they just have legacy models?
 
jsrockit said:
Oops Dave...forgot the smiley for mine (to clarify that I was joking). I truly do not think Leica needs a flagship model. With its stores, they now just need to have product on the shelves. Do niche / luxury companies have a flagship model? or do they just have legacy models?
Click to expand...

Ha...smilies!🙂

No idea what the accepted definition is of a "flagship"...could be price, could be recognition, or history, or what makes a company different. I dunno and will leave that to those smarter than I ever was....😛

I do dislike that "legacy" term, as in "legacy lenses"...what the heck? They are simply vintage lenses...old...heavy...not as sophisticated...old...kind of like us when we get old. I don't think I want to be called a legacy anything.😀 Or vintage for that matter....😎

But, I think a niche company that is surviving and prospering well in today's economy is doing a lot of things right and will be around for a long, long time and the fact that Leica recognizes their core is the M-body...well, nuff said.
 
Until recently, I never would have criticized Leica. In fact, I've been a fan boy. Hell, I even bought and still own an X1!!! It's just that I feel so emotionally attached to the brand and it's history... and it feels so wrong to see them become less about the art and more about the retail brand and margins and yet more special editions and...

I dunno... My feelings are completely unfounded and not based on any one thing they've done. I'm just over it. I'm over saving for an M9/M10, I'm over freaking out over my expensive lens collection, I'm over lusting for a more affordable digital m-lens platform, I'm just over it all.

I'll still use my M6 every day. I'll still use my lenses... But I'm done hoping and praying for a specific Leica future.

I recently bought an X-Pro 1 and you know what? I like it better than my old M8 and even like certain qualities better than the M9. Sure, it has quirks - but no more than the M9 and certainly less than the M8. Plus, I don't have to worry about it as a $7k investment. It's just a camera that works.
 
I still think there is a BIG niche market out there that no one has the guts to grab. Its a simple digital camera with interchangeable lenses, built for still photographers.

This system would have:
- excellent Cosina-like optics (not Leica expensive) with aperture dial on lens
- dials: ISO, shutter speed, modes (manual, aperture priority, speed priority, 'auto')
- built-in viewfinder (modern evf is OK, but built-in)
- shoots RAW only, thus no need for menus.
- IF it has an LCD screen, make it fold out for use like a TLR
- no video capability

The Olympus OM-D is really close to this, but they held onto the group-think that video, art filters, and JPEG capabilities are needed for everyone.

So... I still think that Cosina partnered with someone like Sony could pull this off. And let Leica keep doing what they do best, making luxury cameras for those that enjoy such things. Everyone deserves to have their own niche, right?
 
jsrockit said:
Perhaps they feel the S2 is that model?
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Maybe. But that's medium format. Thinking more in terms of, um, a "35mm" or Micro Four Thirds (I may be wrong, but I think it's the coming thing) pro-caliber model.

S2 lenses are too slow for what I do. And the price is way too steep for me. Take a lot of trips to the blood bank to pay for that one...
 
Ryan1938 said:
Until recently, I never would have criticized Leica. In fact, I've been a fan boy. Hell, I even bought and still own an X1!!! It's just that I feel so emotionally attached to the brand and it's history... and it feels so wrong to see them become less about the art and more about the retail brand and margins and yet more special editions and...

I dunno... My feelings are completely unfounded and not based on any one thing they've done. I'm just over it. I'm over saving for an M9/M10, I'm over freaking out over my expensive lens collection, I'm over lusting for a more affordable digital m-lens platform, I'm just over it all.

I'll still use my M6 every day. I'll still use my lenses... But I'm done hoping and praying for a specific Leica future.

I recently bought an X-Pro 1 and you know what? I like it better than my old M8 and even like certain qualities better than the M9. Sure, it has quirks - but no more than the M9 and certainly less than the M8. Plus, I don't have to worry about it as a $7k investment. It's just a camera that works.
Click to expand...

Ryan, respectfully, it's just a camera. It is not an investment, it is a product that declines in value. Investments are made for a potential increase in value. Buying a car is not an investment. When I was teaching Urban Economics and Real Estate Development at Georgia Tech, students amazed me about their wanting to get a good paying job so they could "invest" in a Porsche 911....they were stunned when I told them it was not an investment but a purchase of a product that will decline in value.:angel: It's just a car.

Leica makes cameras, and profits from sales. They do not offer investments for purchase. They sell cameras that depreciate over time. We, the users of their products are simply "customers", not vested in Leica with anything.

I, like you, prefer Leica products over all others but that is just me. I have zero interest in Fuji, Nikon, Canon, Olympus, etc.....but I don't have a problem with what Leica is doing or will do. I enjoy every minute of everyday with my M3, R4 and IIIf. And yes, I have an X1 lined up from the used market because the ones I have used extensively fit me fine and will work for what I use a digital camera for. I would love an M8 and certainly an M9. Not an issue at the moment that I can't afford either.

And yes, I am just as monogamous with our automobiles, choice of motorcycles, mouthwash, and clothing (I prefer Levi's). That is just me, YMMV. But I don't wash my hands of BMW motorcycles because I may not like their design or products. I can't afford them anymore and dream about being able to pick up an airhead one day down the road, but I haven't given up on BMW Motorrad, just because I can't afford them and wealthier people can. That is MY problem (if I perceived it as one and I don't), not BMW's for asking $30,000 for the motorcycle I would love to own.

I am just happy to enjoy life another day with a Leica camera of any vintage in my hand that allows me to take pictures. But in the end, it is just a camera and I have no vested anything in Leica, the corporation, or Leica the legend.

One has to be his/her own person and that is what I chose long ago.
 
I think that the announcement is telling of what kind of "innovation" we will see in September. People expect an M10 and some new mini mirrorless M. They should try to imagine what could barely warrant an announcement, and that is what it will be. Look at the changes from the X1 to X2. That is the kind of change we will see from M9 to M10: An improved sensor that is better than the M9 but nowhere near the Nikon's low noise threshold, but has Live View. The end. Give us your money.

The mirrorless will be a rebranded Panasonic m4/3rds body with an M Mount instead.

I love my Leica cameras. However I understand that it is very much a seller's market. They are like the hot girl in high school, they can ignore what everyone thinks and still have people clamoring about them. I imagine that they could release special editions of the M9 for the next 5 years and do just fine, especially since digital has plateaued regarding image quality, meaning the M9 makes great files, and is full-frame, period. That is why the M9 won't drop to $2,000 when an M10 comes out like the M8 did. The M8 (I have one) is inferior to the FF M9, but there is no higher step to climb. Even the Noise battle doesn't matter to some. Everyone likes FF though, or at least their lenses to perform how they were designed, whatever the system. No-one likes compromising.
 
dave lackey said:
Ha...smilies!🙂

No idea what the accepted definition is of a "flagship"...could be price, could be recognition, or history, or what makes a company different. I dunno and will leave that to those smarter than I ever was....😛

I do dislike that "legacy" term, as in "legacy lenses"...what the heck? They are simply vintage lenses...old...heavy...not as sophisticated...old...kind of like us when we get old. I don't think I want to be called a legacy anything.😀 Or vintage for that matter....😎

But, I think a niche company that is surviving and prospering well in today's economy is doing a lot of things right and will be around for a long, long time and the fact that Leica recognizes their core is the M-body...well, nuff said.
Click to expand...


I guess the problem ! see with hanging on the the M-body forever and ever is that it's a little bit like hoping Henry Ford would hang on to the Model T body forever and ever.

Yeah, the M-body is cool now. But then, retro is cool right now, anyway. But the day may come when the M-body is seen as OLD...and laughably so. And not worth the exorbitant price. And that's when being a niche market with a small customer base and a pricey product may not be such a good idea.That's why I hope Leica doesn't put ALL its eggs (OK, a good part of 'em) into one basket.
 
"The Critic"

PD32465268_The-Cri_1528803c.jpg
 
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