Japan vs Tokyo 50mm Nikkor

[Bill Harrison]

I have a 50mm Nikkor S-C "Japan" issue, how does it differ from the "Tokyo" model.... ? I notice a Tokyo listed in the classifieds, happy with mine, just curious... Raid? Anyone?

 

[jonmanjiro]

That's easy! One is engraved "Tokyo" and one is engraved "Japan" 😉

Lenses engraved "Tokyo" are early versions and lenses engraved "Japan" came later, after the occupation ended. During the occupation, Japanese manufacturers were prohibited from marking an item as being made in "Japan", so "Tokyo" was used instead.

The optical formula of the Nikkor-S 5cm f1.4 was tweaked along the way by Nikon, but judging from the lenses I've examined (and in some cases CLA'd) the major change to slightly larger diameter optical elements (i.e. more light gathering ability) happened after the switch from "Tokyo" to "Japan", so early "Japan" lenses are optically identical to "Tokyo" lenses.

 

[raid]

Roland likes the Tokyo lenses. I used to have such a lens,and then I sold it.

 

[Krosya]

Based on photos I have seen from both versions - I cant tell any difference. Some claim they can. So, who knows - I personally wouldnt care which it is - both are great lenses that IMO are the same or so close it's not worth chosing one vs the other for a user. Collector - thats a different story.

 

[ferider]

The NKT's bokeh is smoother wide open. At f2 and Tokyo and Japan versions feel indistinguishable. Shown these before:

Feels like an original Zeiss Sonnar, but (1) going down to f1.4, (2) with 0.7m close focus (self-modified), and (3) very well built.

Roland.

 

[jonmanjiro]

The NKT's bokeh is smoother wide open. At f2 and Tokyo and Japan versions feel indistinguishable.

Roland, just to reiterate what I said in my earlier post - the optical formula did NOT change with the engraving change from "Tokyo" to "Japan".

The optical formula changed later on. As such, early "Japan" engraved lenses are optically identical to "Tokyo" engraved lenses. Brian Sweeney recently mentioned that the optical formula changed somewhere in the 33xxxx range. His observation matches mine. Around 8,200 - 8,700 "Tokyo" engraved 5cm f1.4 lenses were manufactured (including 5005 lenses and 361xxx - 321xxx lenses), and "Japan" engraved lenses have been seen as early as 321504, so its quite possible that there are actually more "Japan" engraved lenses with the so called "Tokyo" optical formula than there are "Tokyo" engraved lenses. Just sayin' 🙂

 

[jonmanjiro]

For example, NKJ lens No. 329429 has identical optical elements to the NKT lenses.

 

[ferider]

Not disagreeing, Jon. My point is that the Tokyo lenses have the 1st formula - which I like better than the 2nd. The later Japan versions I tried were clearly different.

BTW, did you see this ? 300519583476@ebay.

 

[sanmich]

How about close up abilities?
any difference between the models?

 

[ferider]

Never seen an LTM 50/1.4 that does not have close focus, Michael. This is my Tokyo version modified for 0.7m min. focus coupling:

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56962

 

[jonmanjiro]

Not disagreeing, Jon. My point is that the Tokyo lenses have the 1st formula - which I like better than the 2nd. The later Japan versions I tried were clearly different.

BTW, did you see this ? 300519583476@ebay.

I just wanted to make clear that its not a NKT vs NKJ thing, Roland. That's all 🙂

The first 8,000 or so NKJ lenses (and maybe as many as the first 18,000 NKJ lenses) also have the 1st formula (which I also prefer btw).

>BTW, did you see this ? 300519583476@ebay.

Not until now. A very rare lens at a somewhat reasonable price 😱

 

[Bill Harrison]

Nkj 1.4

Nkj 1.4

It seems mine is the second formula since it is later than 33xxxx... 347xxx... ferider, if you think they are "clearly" different, can you describe what you like abt the earlier formula? As I said, I like mine and I'm sure it's not a "better or worse" scenario ... I did the .7m conversion, works well.

 

[ferider]

When I compared the two I had, Bill, the younger (Japan) lens was a little sharper than the older one (Tokyo), at the expense of a bit more unsettled bokeh wide open.

Note that I thought they were both very good lenses; I would prefer them both to, say, a pre-asph Summilux (I tried both v2 and v3) - which I found even "rougher" in the OOF department.

Roland.

 

[Bill Harrison]

1.4

1.4

I had heard that... abt the lens in general ... Your two shots are sure smmooth... Thanks everyone... Bill

 

[Burlap Jacket]

Mine is a Japan version with a 327*** serial, so I guess it's the earlier formula. I've never had any issue with the bokeh, it's always looked smooth and interesting to my eye. Sharpness has never been that wonderful wide open and that glow never looks too pleasing with colour film.

 

[former member]

I have measured the front element to be ~1mm smaller in diameter with my early lens when compared with a 334xxx lens. The threads of the fixtures are also smaller in diameter. I have a 5005 series 5cm f1.5 in S-Mount and a 326xxx "Japan" that is identical optics-wise in LTM.

Late Nikkor 5cm F1.4 on the Nikon SP:
Wide-Open:

It is my speculation that the change-over occurred when Nikon decided to move to a 24x36 frame format with the Nikon S2. Remember, the S2 was sent back to the drawing board because of the Leica M3, and delayed by almost a year.

The Collapsible Nikkor 5cm F2 had a close-focus to 3ft, all of the 5cm F1.4 lenses and 5cm F2 Rigid lenses in LTM close-focus to 18".

 

[furcafe]

I have 1 of the early "Japan" lenses, 322***, but have never noticed its boke as being any smoother than my later black 5cm/1.4 Nikkor-S's in Nikon RF mount; I've never had the opportunity to make a direct comparison w/another LTM example (though @ 1 point many years ago I did have the later Japan version). It does appear to be a bit sharper & less "glowy" wide-open than the S mount versions, though.

Here's a relatively recent example from the S mount @ f/1.4:

Roland, just to reiterate what I said in my earlier post - the optical formula did NOT change with the engraving change from "Tokyo" to "Japan".

The optical formula changed later on. As such, early "Japan" engraved lenses are optically identical to "Tokyo" engraved lenses. Brian Sweeney recently mentioned that the optical formula changed somewhere in the 33xxxx range. His observation matches mine. Around 8,200 - 8,700 "Tokyo" engraved 5cm f1.4 lenses were manufactured (including 5005 lenses and 361xxx - 321xxx lenses), and "Japan" engraved lenses have been seen as early as 321504, so its quite possible that there are actually more "Japan" engraved lenses with the so called "Tokyo" optical formula than there are "Tokyo" engraved lenses. Just sayin' 🙂

 

[former member]

In my opinion: of all the Fast Sonnars, the Nikkor 5cm F1.4 has the harshest Bokeh. I believe Nikon went all out to optimize for close-up and wide-open performance, and shows the most "over-correction for spherical aberration". Plus side: It also seems to be sharper than the Canon 50/1.5.

1956 KMZ Jupiter-3 5cm F1.5, wide-open. Modified for 0.8m close-focus.

And the "Daddy" of them all, the pre-war Uncoated 5cm F1.5 Zeiss Sonnar, converted to LTM, wide-open.

 

[jonmanjiro]

I have measured the front element to be ~1mm smaller in diameter with my early lens when compared with a 334xxx lens. The threads of the fixtures are also smaller in diameter. I have a 5005 series 5cm f1.5 in S-Mount and a 326xxx "Japan" that is identical optics-wise in LTM.

That helps narrow down the changeover point! It must have happened between 329xxx and 334xxx, though if Nippon Kogaku followed its normal pattern, there's most likely a range of 500 to 1,000 serial numbers where both optical forumlas are intermixed.

It is my speculation that the change-over occurred when Nikon decided to move to a 24x36 frame format with the Nikon S2. Remember, the S2 was sent back to the drawing board because of the Leica M3, and delayed by almost a year.

Sounds logical to me. But the NKT and early NKJ 50/1.4s are also available in LTM, no? When shot wide open, do they vignette any more than the later NKJ 50/1.4s?

 

[former member]

The NKT and NKJ were also available on the Nicca and Tower cameras.

I need to check the vignetting theory- bigger diameter optics have to count for something!