jupiter 9 question for bessa cameras

[dede95064]

hello,

i have a j9 screw mount lens and would like to buy a bessa for it. since it's a screw mount lens, i was wondering if i buy the bessa r3a plus adapter that it would still have full compatibility in terms of focusing and all. the reason i ask is because i'm wondering if a screw mount to m adapter would slightly change its focusing distances. are there any limitations to using the adapter or is a bessa r more suited for it??

thanks for your help!

 

[payasam]

Welcome to RFF. The M adapter will not affect focussing as it is 1mm thick to account for the 1mm difference in back focus between M and screw lenses. I must warn you that the J-9 is notorious for having bad focus. The one I bought last month from a Russian eBay seller is away to be set right.

 

[dede95064]

ah thanks! where can you send it to get it focused properly?

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Russian screw mount lenses are built to a different focal length standard than the Leica. A Russian lens must be "hacked" (shimmed and/or focal length modified) to work properly on a camera built to the Leica standard.

It is a late Black J-9, or Early Chrome J-9? They are made differently. The Black J-9 has a better chance of working. It uses a shim for the rear module and a shim for the main optics module in the focus mount. Both will probably need to be adjusted.

See this thread for my J-9 adventures.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79337

 

[ZorkiKat]

In my case, it was always the white aluminium (not chrome) J-9 which worked without modification. I had 14(!) J-9 at one time. The black ones from the 1970s tended to be problematic. The best J-9s I have are aluminium barreled ones from the early 1960s.

These had not been modified, and focus is on the spot. The same could be said of the J-9 which had been sent to me by friends for inspection.
One indicator that they had not been modified or tampered is the hard grease in their helicals- indication that they have not been disassembled
in fairly recent times, and that the assembly is still the original factory version.

I would not say exactly that ALL Russian LTM lenses need to be modified or adjusted to work in Leica. I have several Jupiters in 35, 50, and 85 mm which focus right in my M3 and III series cameras, and these have not been adjusted.

It's the Jupiter-9 which had been tampered with which have focus errors. These are the ones which had been described as 'smoothly focusing'. The barrel was disassembled for cleaning and oiling, but reassembly was incorrect. Improper reassembly is easy to do with the J-9, owing to its complex triple barrel which goes together like a rubiks cube. So many ways to put them together, but only one is correct.

 

[dede95064]

i have a 1959 chrome j9. i just purchaed a zorki 4 for it to test it out before i get the bessa. i'm hoping it can focus properly at least with the zorki. we'll see!

 

[Sonnar Brian]

I go by my own experience. If the lens will focus properly at infinity, and the RF of the camera and distance scale of the lens all agree, it is not misassembled.

The FSU lenses are all over the place. Some work, some do not. Try the lens wide-open at close-focus, and at infinity. Report back on the results. I currently have three J-9's, one LTM and two Contax/Kiev mount. All required adjustments. The Black J-9 in Contax mount was bought "new-old-stock" and required 0.5mm to be added to the main shim to work with a Contax II.

 

[dede95064]

i'll indeed post the results of the focus test. thanks!

 

[jarski]

These had not been modified, and focus is on the spot. The same could be said of the J-9 which had been sent to me by friends for inspection.
One indicator that they had not been modified or tampered is the hard grease in their helicals- indication that they have not been disassembled
in fairly recent times, and that the assembly is still the original factory version.

ZorkiKat, Brian et al. I have exactly this problem. my J-9 has stiff old grease in it, but dont even want to try DIY CLA due to numerous warnings in this site. I screw optics module out, put in little oil but its not enough, full disassembly and cleaning would be needed. had the lens looked at my local camera service shop, but they dont understand much these old LTM lenses, it came back with comments "just use it and be happy" 🙂

so my options are running short. send lens abroad somewhere with more costly and proper CLA (which I would prefer not todo with cheap FSU lenses), or, what I though of asking here: by taking the optics module out, is it feasible to soak the focusing barrel with WD-40 (or even gasoline) and get rid of old grease without taking barrel apart ? after long soaking and drying, would this work ? 🙄

edit: sorry for hijack the thread.

 

[payasam]

Probably not a good idea to soak the lens, assuming that there's coated glass in it.

 

[jarski]

Probably not a good idea to soak the lens, assuming that there's coated glass in it.

yep. I would soak only the focusing barrel, after taking optics out from it.

aperture is a bit stiff also, so that would not change (being inside optics module). but if focus would be smoother than now, it would make the lens already much easier to handle.

 

[ZorkiKat]

Saying that all Russian/Ukrainian lenses have to be modified to work on Leica without qualifiers can be a bit reckless.

I've talked to some people who were asking if their Jupiter or Industar would work on their Leica....or had people tell me that they are getting a Leica lens for a soon-to-arrive Leica or Bessa because they read somewhere that their current Jupiter clutch won't work on other RFs. All that without actually testing and seeing the goods.

Almost always (going by my experience) the lens worked. Doing nothing more than removing the lens from the FED and putting it on the Leica. In one recent example, I was sent a Jupiter-8 whose owner said it won't properly focus. It turned out that the optic module was loose.

 

[ZorkiKat]

ZorkiKat, Brian et al. I have exactly this problem. my J-9 has stiff old grease in it, but dont even want to try DIY CLA due to numerous warnings in this site. I screw optics module out, put in little oil but its not enough, full disassembly and cleaning would be needed. had the lens looked at my local camera service shop, but they dont understand much these old LTM lenses, it came back with comments "just use it and be happy" 🙂
[...]

edit: sorry for hijack the thread.

Jarski, one of the reasons, which I believe that J-9 fail to work properly is in the grease used. The threads on the helicoids are not as fine as would be needed for the different actions involved (converting the lens' relative focus position to the cam movement) during the focusing and RF coupling actions. The Soviets may have solved this by putting thick viscous grease to tighten up the gaps.


The first 2 J9s I had focus problems. One was moving the RF coupling cam at the wrong lengths needed, and the other was right at infinity (the cam should extend 7.5mm from the lens' mount surface) and at 1.15m (4.9mm). The former obviously needed to be reassembled for proper camming, but the latter wasn't camming right at the intermediate distances.

The latter lens's barrel also turned very smoothly. It had the smell of new grease too. The repairer had replaced the old grease with a new light one.
Noting that my heavy-turning J-9 focused right, I thought that the grease may have something to do with it. So I took the lens apart, and removed the "new grease"- not much as it was light- and replaced it with heavier automotive axel grease.

This grease made the barrel turn with more effort. But it made the focusing more accurate.

As for the hard-to-turn aperture ring, here's one non-invasive solution:

You'd need some lighter fluid, a bit of sewing machine oil, and an insulin syringe.

Inject, sparingly some lighter fluid into the groove between the aperture ring and the barrel. Apply minute amounts first, then turn the ring. Some dirty liquid may ooze out. When the ring can turn freely, that should be enough.

Do the same on the inside part of the ring too. The edge of the aperture ring is near the part of the optic block which sits in the barrel. Apply some lighter fluid too, but do this even more sparingly. Be careful not to put too much or some may get inside the optics.

And in case the ring tightens again when the lighter fluid dries, make up a 1/4 sewing machine oil + 3/4 lighter fluid mixture. Inject this in the exterior ring groove and turn the ring immediately to spread the mixture.

This is what I've done with tight J-9 aperture rings since 2001. None of them had to be reoiled since.

 

[spiderfrank]

Hi all, I have a Jupiter-9 in Kiev-Contax mount, from the 50's : it works well with my Kiev II. In LTM mount I have a Jupiter-11: it works perfectly with my Fed2, but I have some problems at short distances and full aperture with my Bessa R: I don't know if it's due to a "shimmer problem" or to the very short rangefinder base of the Bessa, but I must say that the Voigtlander Nokton 50/1.5 works really well on the Fed2, so I think it's more a problem of the Bessa than the lens.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

The FSU LTM lenses are built to the Contax 52.4mm standard, as per the Spec sheet that comes with the lenses.

Most, not all, will need some find-tuning to work well close-up and wide-open on a Leica. If the lenses are built to spec, they will need adjusting. If they are off spec, you might get lucky. If someone else in the last 30~60 years already did the work, and did it correctly, you are even luckier. You might get lucky with your lens, but will not know until testing wide-open at infinity and wide-open at closest focus. You can always stop the lens down, use it, and be happy. Or learn how to fine-tune the lens for your camera. And be happier.

A lot of people on this forum have had problems with FSU lenses focussing properly on a Leica. To say that all of these problems were caused by a misassembly problems is simply ignoring the Spec sheet that came with the lens.

 

[ZorkiKat]

The spec sheet, as far as I understand it only says that the focal length of certain Jupiter is 52.4mm.

The sheets also say that (if accompanying an LTM lens) would work with the Leica standard register, which is 28.8mm.

Would it not be possible for the Soviets to have corrected or at least done something to the mounts which would make them cam with Leica standards as well? After taking pains to conform with the working standard, they would have at least tweaked the camming action to conform to Leica as well... If they stuck with the Contax camming, shouldn't they have used the Contax working distance too, or perhaps established their own working standard instead of following Leica's 28.8mm?

The Jupiter -9 lenses have "passports" which say that their actual FL is 84.5 or something mm. What does the Contax 52.4mm standard have to do with that? And if Leica never had trouble making new cam movements for their non-50s, why would it appear to be unthinkable for the Soviets to make similar ones for an 84.5mm or a 52,4 or a 53mm lens?

The Jupiters don't have direct focus helical to rf cam movements. Some intermediate helicals connect or convert one movement into the suitable movement, so is it not plausible to assume that the Soviets actually did something to marry a Contax FL to a Leica camming standard?.

Just something to think about...

It's not good to have people immediately assuming that they have to take their lenses apart to use them on Leica.
I've seen some bad ones, and these had been badly fixed. I've seen a lot of good ones too that worked as they came off the shipping packets.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

The Normal Lenses for thew FSU bodies are 52.4mm. There is no correcting mechanism to translate the 52.4mm focal length to the Leica standard. No curved cam. The optics module screws into the portion of the mount that has the Cam. It is a 1:1 movement. FSU Screw Mount cameras are built to the 52.4mm standard, and not the Leica standard.

This also explains why my J-9 works perfectly at Infinity, but cannot focus up-close and wide-open. The lens is assembled correctly. Taking the focal length out of spec improved the focus across the range.

 

[Philipp]

Sorry, I don't understand. What is this "Contax standard" of 52,4mm you mentioned? It cannot be the lens mount to film plane distance. This is 34,85mm on a Contax. On a Leica (LTM), the lens mount to film plane distance is 28,80mm. When camera and lens are build to the same mount to film plane distance, you are able to get a sharp image, the focal length has nothing to do with it. As ZorkiKat said, the 52,4mm on the spec sheet just tells you the exact focal length, the lens register is 28,80mm. All lenses (also the new ones) do not have exactly the focal length which is printed on the lens itself. When you download a spec sheet of the latest SUMMILUX 1:1,4/50 mm ASPH., you will see the focal length is 51,6mm, and the exact focal lenght of the latest NOCTILUX is 52,3mm. But as they all use the same register (27,80mm), they all produce a sharp image.

A FSU LTM lens per se is perfectly usable on a Leica/Bessa camera (with an adapter even on M-mount). BUT there was a very low standard of quality control, many lenses are decades old, some were "fixed" by a former owner or the seller THEREFORE some have to be "optimised" (shimed etc.) before you can use them. I would recommend to give your lens a try on your Bessa before you start taking it apart. Some really work beautifully just as they come off of the shipping packets!

Philipp

 

[Sonnar Brian]

The 52.4mm is the nominal focal length of a Contax normal lens. The Rangefinder of the camera is calibrated for a 52.4mm lens.

The FSU Thread Mount cameras have rangefinders that work with 52.4mm lenses. The 5cm lenses are a nominal 52.4mm. They will be off on a Leica camera that is calibrated for a nominal 51.6. M-Mount lenses use a rotating cam on the lens that corrects for the slight difference in focal length. This is similar to a Nikon S-Mount camera using a bayonet mount that looks like a Contax mount, but built to the Leica standard focal length of 51.6mm. No one states that Zeiss quality control was low because a Zeiss Sonnar will not work on a Nikon. A Russian Zorki and Fed "look like Leica Mounts", but the lenses are built to the Contax/Kiev focal length standard. The rangefinder mechanisms are calibrated to the 52.4mm focal length standard. A Nikon is built to the Leica Focal Length standard. It's easy to see that a Nikon mount rotates 260degrees from 3ft to infinity, a Contax rotaes 270 degrees, both have the same pitch, and the Contax mount moves 0.1mm more than a Nikon because it rotates further. Same with an FSU thread mount lenses. The 52.4mm FL helical moves 0.1mm farther than a Leica 51.6mm FL lens.

An FSU lens will fit on a Leica camera just fine. If you want to have it focus correctly, it needs to have a shim set to optimize performance. Or, you can change the focal length by moving the rear module in closer to the front. I've done both.

An FSU lens made to Spec will not work properly on a Leica camera because the focal length is different.

The optics screw into the portion of the focus mechanism that has the RF Cam. It moves 1:1 with the optics module. The throw of a 52.4mm focal length lens is 0.1mm more than the throw of a 51.6mm lens when moved from 3ft to infinity. Seems straightforward enough to understand why an FSU lens built to spec will not properly focus on a Leica camera.

 

[Philipp]

Thank you, Brian, for explaining in detail! Now I see the problem, but as I never had problems with my FSU lenses on my Bessa I am not going to take them apart.