JoeV
Thin Air, Bright Sun
I'm interested in this thread because of the dichotomy between craft and art. I think, at best, the two are inextricably intertwined - their interface cannot be easily resolved.
I'm currently going through a down period in my silver gelatin craftsmanship. The output of my darkroom is mainly scrap paper for the waste bin. But at least I can recognize it as such, instead of deluding myself into thinking that poor technical execution is "art."
I think it's possible to have this problem regardless of what kind of photographic technology one employs. The important thing is having high enough standards to know when good enough is good enough. The danger of an over-reliance on the technology of photography is that it can remove us from having our hands in the mix, it erodes our craftsmanship. We need to stay close to our materials and methods to maintain a high standard of quality, regardless of which imaging path we choose to employ. It has always been that way with art; an artist-artisan intimately knows one's materials and methods.
~Joe
I'm currently going through a down period in my silver gelatin craftsmanship. The output of my darkroom is mainly scrap paper for the waste bin. But at least I can recognize it as such, instead of deluding myself into thinking that poor technical execution is "art."
I think it's possible to have this problem regardless of what kind of photographic technology one employs. The important thing is having high enough standards to know when good enough is good enough. The danger of an over-reliance on the technology of photography is that it can remove us from having our hands in the mix, it erodes our craftsmanship. We need to stay close to our materials and methods to maintain a high standard of quality, regardless of which imaging path we choose to employ. It has always been that way with art; an artist-artisan intimately knows one's materials and methods.
~Joe
jamesdfloyd
Film is cheap therapy!
I like this thread...reminds me of my posting about a month ago asking "what defines Fine Art Photography". I've gone to 3 exhibits in the past month in NYC; my comment a month ago still stands "Chimpanzees with cameras".
J.D.
J.D.
jamesdfloyd
Film is cheap therapy!
PKR - great point about having a computer and camera make you a photographer.
Today while shopping I meant a Art College student who wants to be a wedding photographer. Long-story short, I have him the scared straight speech about why I left that business after 27-years. He acknowledged that he as college mates who are doing more traditional illustration classes, but take photography because they want to get better at Photoshop. They feel that it makes them photographers.
J.D.
Today while shopping I meant a Art College student who wants to be a wedding photographer. Long-story short, I have him the scared straight speech about why I left that business after 27-years. He acknowledged that he as college mates who are doing more traditional illustration classes, but take photography because they want to get better at Photoshop. They feel that it makes them photographers.
J.D.
jamesdfloyd
Film is cheap therapy!
PKR - I agree again...
When I moved to digital (5-years ago) I too bought into the "I'll fix it in post" school of thought. Now, I get angry with myself if I have to "fix" anything in post - get it right in camera is my way. Now, to be fair, tweaking curves a little and using Smart Sharpen are a requirement at least when you use digital, but if it takes more than 5-minutes to work a file, I know I messed up.
On a related topic, I am reminded of those captions in the more popular photography magazines where the caption says, "...camera type...lens...minor adjustments to curves in Photoshop." To me that is the photography equivalent of a comb-over to hide a bald spot. "Minor adjustments to curves" statement is like any buzz statement to comply with the rules, while not admitting that you over did it.
O.K., my rant for the weekend.
J.D.
When I moved to digital (5-years ago) I too bought into the "I'll fix it in post" school of thought. Now, I get angry with myself if I have to "fix" anything in post - get it right in camera is my way. Now, to be fair, tweaking curves a little and using Smart Sharpen are a requirement at least when you use digital, but if it takes more than 5-minutes to work a file, I know I messed up.
On a related topic, I am reminded of those captions in the more popular photography magazines where the caption says, "...camera type...lens...minor adjustments to curves in Photoshop." To me that is the photography equivalent of a comb-over to hide a bald spot. "Minor adjustments to curves" statement is like any buzz statement to comply with the rules, while not admitting that you over did it.
O.K., my rant for the weekend.
J.D.
ErnestoJL
Well-known
About a couple of years ago, me and my GF went to a picture exhibition at one of the most important places in Buenos Aires, the Photo Gallery at the San Martín Theater. The photographer, (a lady) took some pictures from a super 8mm family film shoot in a summer resort. She showed the pictures saying that the pictures were significant for herself so she showed them as her´s.
No comments about her lack of ethics.
After seeing this exhibition I created a new term: trash pictures (in fact I said s**t pictures).
It seems that too many people is looking for weird, unusual, defective or whatever bad images (lomography?) are available to worship it... thinking its art. Seems to be that something no one knows how to qualify is art...
If a collector pays an obscene amount of money for a supermarket picture... hummm ... things are getting bad...
Cheers
Ernesto
No comments about her lack of ethics.
After seeing this exhibition I created a new term: trash pictures (in fact I said s**t pictures).
It seems that too many people is looking for weird, unusual, defective or whatever bad images (lomography?) are available to worship it... thinking its art. Seems to be that something no one knows how to qualify is art...
If a collector pays an obscene amount of money for a supermarket picture... hummm ... things are getting bad...
Cheers
Ernesto
ErnestoJL
Well-known
Brian Legge
Veteran
I was at a camera store a few weeks ago when a woman - probably in her 50s - came in with her son. She was buying a few rolls of film, likely for her sons photography class from the questions they were posing.
She was in the process of buying some Kodak Gold when she spotted the Portras. The sales person informed her that those were the pro films. "And what is the difference between NC and VC?" she inquired. Upon being told what the initials stood for, she looked at the clerk slightly confused and said:
"Why would anyone ever us NC when you could have more vivid colors? Vivid is always better!"
I somehow don't think she watched much MTV so there must be other factors driving questionable taste.
She was in the process of buying some Kodak Gold when she spotted the Portras. The sales person informed her that those were the pro films. "And what is the difference between NC and VC?" she inquired. Upon being told what the initials stood for, she looked at the clerk slightly confused and said:
"Why would anyone ever us NC when you could have more vivid colors? Vivid is always better!"
I somehow don't think she watched much MTV so there must be other factors driving questionable taste.
user237428934
User deletion pending
I somehow don't think she watched much MTV so there must be other factors driving questionable taste.
Thank you so much for the proof that MTV is not in charge for the global bad taste like it was stated above.
And I'm glad that there is no art-police that determines what is art and what we have to look at in museums.
semilog
curmudgeonly optimist
FWIW, when I started teaching Introductory Biochemistry 6 years ago we generally had 350 students enrolled. It's now 600, and I'm always blown away by just how good the top 15% of the class is. I don't worry about the good students – they are as good as ever.
I think that part of what we are seeing is a further divergence of Snow's Two Cultures. Those who care about science and math still care. Those who don't, care less than ever and, more ominously, they have active contempt for science and math.
aldobonnard
Well-known
I have the same impression (or lack of...) after watching a few exhibitions in Oxford. All inkjet printed, over processed, ugly colours, over enlarged, uninteresting subjects; well, just making up the numbers only perhaps.
All exhibitions... except one, where the photographer printed BW in the wet darkroom. Not a great exhib, but far better and really a few of the pics were very enjoyable.
Just a fact, no opinion there... maybe it's being unlucky in the UK... apart from London where there is a great photo exhib at the Portrait Gallery at the moment. Bad luck for the "countrysiders" like me...
ottluuk
the indecisive eternity
Isn't all this ranting about bad taste in curated/presented art simply useless? What is it? Envy? The fear of being ridiculed for doing something in simple, old-fasioned ways?
There are a few simple, positive ways of improving your own situation.
First, set your own standards as high as you want. Strive for excellence within your own style. Don't dwell so much on what others do.
Second, support the artists, curators and venues that you like. Tell your friends, buy their stuff, or simply pass a few words of encouragement.
Third, actively seek out your own audience. You can't just force your work on people that don't have a clue about your views, way of working etc. and expect them to love it. Start by showing your work to likeminded people.
And only when everything has failed, return to your rants.
There are a few simple, positive ways of improving your own situation.
First, set your own standards as high as you want. Strive for excellence within your own style. Don't dwell so much on what others do.
Second, support the artists, curators and venues that you like. Tell your friends, buy their stuff, or simply pass a few words of encouragement.
Third, actively seek out your own audience. You can't just force your work on people that don't have a clue about your views, way of working etc. and expect them to love it. Start by showing your work to likeminded people.
And only when everything has failed, return to your rants.
semilog
curmudgeonly optimist
semilog
curmudgeonly optimist
Gazzah
RF newbie
I have had an ongoing email conversation with the photographer. It seems that he didnt seel that many prints - until he mentioned to a few people that he could print them up on "paper" instead of canvas - then more people starting getting interested.
Im going back to meet him in person, and he is bringing along a set of paper prints for me to see..
I did ask him how many images he took during his day at the old mill - "about 5-6000" - how on earth could he have even concidered the metering for each of those - if he did an 8 hour day that was 4.8 seconds per shot... and I suspect he only spent a few hours walking once through the site snapping on multishot as he went...
I was nearly this bad in my depths of digital depression - PS will make it right, HDR will take care of bad metering, take 20 shots; ones bound to be OK - but I dont think I ever went above 500 shots in one day.. I am having to re-learn things that once were there by nature, but it has brought the fun back into the whole process - the act of setting up and taking a shot is just as important and as much fun to me as the end result..
Gary H
Paul Luscher
Well-known
Part of the trouble w/ digital & Photoshop is that you can "tart up" pictures in a way that you could not do before, and make them look really spectacular...although hardly resembling what was actually shot. HDR comes to mind, among other things.
This has raised the bar such that if one presents their photos in a straightforward manner, with little or no processing, they are considered plain-Jane and unremarkable. Goes along w/ Zorkicats' comment re the students at the show...
Well, that's my excuse anyway....
This has raised the bar such that if one presents their photos in a straightforward manner, with little or no processing, they are considered plain-Jane and unremarkable. Goes along w/ Zorkicats' comment re the students at the show...
Well, that's my excuse anyway....
NaChase
Well-known
Then again, who would there be for us to lord our superiority over if it weren't for the HDR aficionados and manic PhotoShoppers?
-PS: Sarcasm is difficult to convey via type.
-PS: Sarcasm is difficult to convey via type.
bulevardi
Established
I want my rant of the day too.
Had to wake up at 5 AM to get off to work, I dislike early services as I'm an evening guy.
When walking to the office, did a detour to shoot some nightshots.
I needed to end my film as I still had 2 frames on the roll. After that I rewinded, but the winder got stuck somewhere. I thought 'maybe it's done' and opened the back of the camera, of course it was not rolled up yet. Closed and rewinded worked again.
So I messed up a few frames of the roll by opening it... knowing that almost all the shots I did with this roll did matter for a specific series, and these moments probably won't come back again.
I'm such a st00pid... "I didn't drink enough coffee before leaving home" is no excuse, although I wasn't awake yet.
Arriving at work, the elevaters didn't work, had to do the stairs for 6 floors.
So, what's your rant for the day?
Had to wake up at 5 AM to get off to work, I dislike early services as I'm an evening guy.
When walking to the office, did a detour to shoot some nightshots.
I needed to end my film as I still had 2 frames on the roll. After that I rewinded, but the winder got stuck somewhere. I thought 'maybe it's done' and opened the back of the camera, of course it was not rolled up yet. Closed and rewinded worked again.
So I messed up a few frames of the roll by opening it... knowing that almost all the shots I did with this roll did matter for a specific series, and these moments probably won't come back again.
I'm such a st00pid... "I didn't drink enough coffee before leaving home" is no excuse, although I wasn't awake yet.
Arriving at work, the elevaters didn't work, had to do the stairs for 6 floors.
So, what's your rant for the day?
Big Ursus
Well-known
Yup, often other than technique, "there [is] little or nothing to distinguish work from many other peoples".
I remember before I taught my first university class, the head of the department told me: "most students aren't interested, and many aren't very bright. Ignore them, they're too depressing. Just talk to the others."
So, when I see boring work - pictures I've seen 100s of times before - I try not to pay attention to it. When the pictures are better than mine, I'm inspired to keep going. When I don't understand the work, I sit down and try to look more carefully. Maybe I'll learn something.
I remember before I taught my first university class, the head of the department told me: "most students aren't interested, and many aren't very bright. Ignore them, they're too depressing. Just talk to the others."
So, when I see boring work - pictures I've seen 100s of times before - I try not to pay attention to it. When the pictures are better than mine, I'm inspired to keep going. When I don't understand the work, I sit down and try to look more carefully. Maybe I'll learn something.
trix4ever
Well-known
I recently was in a huge shopping centre in queenslands gold coast and there was a major exhibition of landscape work, in the guise of a competition.
I did not know it was there, just sorta tripped over it.
Every print was too big for the file, every single one had the saturation and clarity turned up full, all had the shadows pulled up hard and all were wildly oversharpened.
This was 40 different photographers doing the same thing.
It nearly sent me blind.
I wondered if I was just too old for this rubbish, but no, on reflection all the work was crap, but if it seems to be what people want to do, good luck to them, as long as I don't have to look at it.
I went home and looked at a Pentti Sammallahti book.
http://filmisadelight.com
I did not know it was there, just sorta tripped over it.
Every print was too big for the file, every single one had the saturation and clarity turned up full, all had the shadows pulled up hard and all were wildly oversharpened.
This was 40 different photographers doing the same thing.
It nearly sent me blind.
I wondered if I was just too old for this rubbish, but no, on reflection all the work was crap, but if it seems to be what people want to do, good luck to them, as long as I don't have to look at it.
I went home and looked at a Pentti Sammallahti book.
http://filmisadelight.com
Dogman
Veteran
So, nothing has changed since 2010.