Soeren
Well-known
I have been playing with the idea for sometime now and the latest "vacation" slepping my 2 body, 3 lens AF Nikon outfit around was another push in the direction.
My current lens collection concist of a 20mm, 50mm 1,4, 55 Micro, 85mm 1,4 and for the rare longshots a 180mm. I have been using the 20, 50 and 85 shooting B&W, B&W IR and Color slides.
I figure a RF lens outfit would end being the 15mm, 21 or 25mm, 28mm, 35mm and a 90mm and perhaps a 50mm, some of those the fast models.
I won't be carrying more than three of those at any time ( I'm not that stupid
) so I could be working with a 28, 50 and 90 or or 21, 35 and 90 or .............
Anyway I will start with a 35mm as my first lens.
Now to my question. Whats the wiser thing to do? Bessa R2M, R3M or a Leica M4 (-2) (-P) or M2. The Bessas are brand new, the Leicas have decades behind them and may need CLA. The Leicas on the other hand have a much better RF base (twice the Bessa?).
The Bessas are the cheapest but maybe a Leica will keep its value if selling again?
Will I need the longer base of the leicas for a fast 50mm and a 90mm F/2,0?
I recon I'll start with Voigtländer lenses and I probably won't be able to afford Leica glass for a very long time in the future.
Kind regards
Søren
My current lens collection concist of a 20mm, 50mm 1,4, 55 Micro, 85mm 1,4 and for the rare longshots a 180mm. I have been using the 20, 50 and 85 shooting B&W, B&W IR and Color slides.
I figure a RF lens outfit would end being the 15mm, 21 or 25mm, 28mm, 35mm and a 90mm and perhaps a 50mm, some of those the fast models.
I won't be carrying more than three of those at any time ( I'm not that stupid
) so I could be working with a 28, 50 and 90 or or 21, 35 and 90 or .............Anyway I will start with a 35mm as my first lens.
Now to my question. Whats the wiser thing to do? Bessa R2M, R3M or a Leica M4 (-2) (-P) or M2. The Bessas are brand new, the Leicas have decades behind them and may need CLA. The Leicas on the other hand have a much better RF base (twice the Bessa?).
The Bessas are the cheapest but maybe a Leica will keep its value if selling again?
Will I need the longer base of the leicas for a fast 50mm and a 90mm F/2,0?
I recon I'll start with Voigtländer lenses and I probably won't be able to afford Leica glass for a very long time in the future.
Kind regards
Søren
capitalK
Warrior Poet :P
Having just received my R2A in the last week I will give you my first impressions.
First off, a Bessa would never fool anyone who has ever held a Leica. It's not nearly as solid. Having said that a Leica is built to a whole other standard and in my experience there isn't a whole lot out there that feels the same in the hands.
Also the shutter speed has a distinct "clunk" to it, again no one who has shot one would be fooled into thinking it's a Leica. I can't really say much about the rangefinder base but my understanding is exactly what you posted on the matter.
I really like the way the R2A meters in manual mode. It shows you your selected shutter speed in the viewfinder but also chimes in on what it thinks you should be shooting at by flashing. So if you have 1/1000th selected in solid red and it thinks you should be at 1/500th it will flash this number. I have found this to be very intuitive, more so than an arrow pointing towards under or over-exposing.
For me the Bessa is satisfying a short-term need for a nice rangefinder camera at a great price. If I keep going down this slippery slope I expect I may buy a Leica body (maybe an M3) and keep the Bessa as a backup. This is a ways off because of my budget right now and I'm sure I will continue shooting with the Bessa in the meantime.
First off, a Bessa would never fool anyone who has ever held a Leica. It's not nearly as solid. Having said that a Leica is built to a whole other standard and in my experience there isn't a whole lot out there that feels the same in the hands.
Also the shutter speed has a distinct "clunk" to it, again no one who has shot one would be fooled into thinking it's a Leica. I can't really say much about the rangefinder base but my understanding is exactly what you posted on the matter.
I really like the way the R2A meters in manual mode. It shows you your selected shutter speed in the viewfinder but also chimes in on what it thinks you should be shooting at by flashing. So if you have 1/1000th selected in solid red and it thinks you should be at 1/500th it will flash this number. I have found this to be very intuitive, more so than an arrow pointing towards under or over-exposing.
For me the Bessa is satisfying a short-term need for a nice rangefinder camera at a great price. If I keep going down this slippery slope I expect I may buy a Leica body (maybe an M3) and keep the Bessa as a backup. This is a ways off because of my budget right now and I'm sure I will continue shooting with the Bessa in the meantime.
ClaremontPhoto
Jon Claremont
You are confused beyond confusion.
Take a step back, take a deep breath, think about your photography.
Take a step back, take a deep breath, think about your photography.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Soeren,
Kick off with the 35, as you say, and see what you really feel you need next; don't start out with preconceptions.
For me, Leica M2 vs. Voigtländer R2 is incredibly finely balanced, with the R2's meter counting for a LOT; but I prefer the self-keying frame lines and the longer EBL of the rangefinder on the M2, as well as the overall feel. If I use fast lenses of 50mm and above (I currently have access to 50/1, 50/1.2, 50/1.5, 75/2, 90/2, 90/2.2) I find the M2 significantly easier to focus reliably, but I used the 35/1.2 on the R2 without problems.
Have you considered the ZI?
Or with 50/2, 75/2.5 and 90/2.5 or 90/3.5, the R2 is fine. How fast do you want to go?
Cheers,
R.
Soeren
Well-known
Dear Roger
How fast do I want to go? In my dreams! As fast as possible. In reality. Hmm I hope for the coming of a CV 90 f/2.0 in range of my budget else there is not much hope for a fast 90mm or even 75mm. Then again my Nikor is a f/1.4 so Id hate to be without the speed. Solution to that would be carrying a Nikon body with the 85mm but that kind of spoils the fun of RF. If pressed hard i may admit no need for more than f/2 - f/2.8
I havn't considered the ZI mainly because of the price, I'm on a budget.
You point out exactly for I was worrying about so I will do some thinking on the speed issue. Maybe a fast 35 will be all I need for lowlight shooting so I should be fine with the R2.
Thanks and Kind regards
Søren
ferider
Veteran
If you consider 28 and 90 in the future, definitely an (early) M4P. Have it CLA'ed and it will hold forever (in contrast to a Bessa).
Roland.
Roland.
Soeren
Well-known
Aih now I'm drawn in the opposite direction again.
I'm not quite sure which focallenghts Ill end up with.
Kind regards
Søren
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Roger
How fast do I want to go? In my dreams! As fast as possible. In reality. Hmm I hope for the coming of a CV 90 f/2.0 in range of my budget else there is not much hope for a fast 90mm or even 75mm. Then again my Nikor is a f/1.4 so Id hate to be without the speed. Solution to that would be carrying a Nikon body with the 85mm but that kind of spoils the fun of RF. If pressed hard i may admit no need for more than f/2 - f/2.8
I havn't considered the ZI mainly because of the price, I'm on a budget.
You point out exactly for I was worrying about so I will do some thinking on the speed issue. Maybe a fast 35 will be all I need for lowlight shooting so I should be fine with the R2.
Thanks and Kind regards
Søren
Dear Soeren,
I don't think a CV 90/2 is likely because it would be really marginal with the CV base length -- but while 90/2 pre-aspheric Summicrons (second series, not the big chrome ones) are expensive, they are still within the realm of dreams and (taking a guess from what you say) bare possibility.
If you can live with the 35/1.2, the Bessa-R-series should be OK. If you want 50/1.5, maybe. With 75/2 and 90/2, I'd say you were pushing your luck.
Cheers,
R.
shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
Aih now I'm drawn in the opposite direction again.
I'm not quite sure which focallenghts Ill end up with.
Kind regards
Søren
Soren (pardon the spelling, I don't know how to get the nifty 'o' with the slash from my keyboard)
I second Roland's suggestion, a used M4-P will enable you to get a taste of using an M-system with various focal length lenses without burning too big of a hole in your budget. Provided that you are willing to shoot without an built-in meter.
If you must have a built-in meter, go with a Bessa R-series with a plan to upgrade it into a Zeiss Ikon or an M6... or maybe not, you'll know the answer after you use it for a while.
The lens IMHO is more important than the body, start with a cheap used 50mm M or LTM lens (FSU lenses are ok, provided you get a decent one from an honest seller. Nevermind what some says about them).
Use it for a while and decide if you like it or would like to go wider or narrower. Then start to find a better lens that suit your vision.
Soeren
Well-known
Thanks all for your answers. They have given me more food for thought than youll ever know. I realize I lust for a Leica in the M4 something range but I see the cheaper CV Bessa as a more likely starter camera so the leica comes as a second. How do you look at shooting CV lenses on a leica? Maybe an odd question but since the test reviews on those lenses are rather scarce I don't know much about their quality other than the "best bang for the buck" proclamation here and there.
Roger I did some rereading of my old B&W P magazines and found yours and Frances articles on the matter. They threw some more light on it. Thanks
Kind regards
Søren
Roger I did some rereading of my old B&W P magazines and found yours and Frances articles on the matter. They threw some more light on it. Thanks
Kind regards
Søren
thomasw_
Well-known
I agree with Roland. Save just a bit more and get a body that will last and hold its value. The least expensive L bodies are the M2/3/M4-P/M4-2:> Of these, based on your intended use, I would recommend -- in this order -- the M2, M4-P or M4-2. BTW, there is a nice looking M4-2 in the RFF classifieds right now for 700USD. But I recommend the classic framelines of the M2; especially if you are thinking of starting with the 35mm focal length. Again, if you wish to use a fast 90, the M2 has the best .72x VF framelines for 90mm; also the using the entire M2 VF is great for approximating the 28/25mm framelines. So the choice is yours, but I recommend the hand held light meter and a M2. Hope this helps. Thomas
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Soeren,
I cheerfully use CV lenses on my Leicas.
In a perfect world: new MP. Slightly less perfect: used, metered Leica (M6 or MP, not M6ttl with the backwards shutter speed dial, or M7 unless you want battery dependency as well as a backwards shutter speed dial) or Zeiss Ikon. Less perfect still: M2 or R2, but you may in the long run trade up to a metered camera. At this point the M2 will hold its value better while a s/h R2 doesn't cost a fortune anyway.
Cheers,
R.
I cheerfully use CV lenses on my Leicas.
In a perfect world: new MP. Slightly less perfect: used, metered Leica (M6 or MP, not M6ttl with the backwards shutter speed dial, or M7 unless you want battery dependency as well as a backwards shutter speed dial) or Zeiss Ikon. Less perfect still: M2 or R2, but you may in the long run trade up to a metered camera. At this point the M2 will hold its value better while a s/h R2 doesn't cost a fortune anyway.
Cheers,
R.
Soeren
Well-known
Dear Roger
Nice to hear your verdict on the CV lenses. I Don't especially feel the need for a metered camera since I use either a Spotmeter or an incident light meter for both my Pentax 6X7 an my 13X18 Sinar Norma. Offcource it is nice with a built in meter but I'm not put of by meterless cameras. The M2 and M4-2 or -P are high on my wishlist. The new MP, nice as it may be, is just way to expensive. I think I'm shopping for a Bessa R2M as my first RF considering a 25mm, 35mm (eh f/2,5 or the f/1,4) and a 75mm f/2,5 as the lens kit to be in the future. Hmm which is the best performer the 75mm or the 90mm?
Kind regards
Søren
Nice to hear your verdict on the CV lenses. I Don't especially feel the need for a metered camera since I use either a Spotmeter or an incident light meter for both my Pentax 6X7 an my 13X18 Sinar Norma. Offcource it is nice with a built in meter but I'm not put of by meterless cameras. The M2 and M4-2 or -P are high on my wishlist. The new MP, nice as it may be, is just way to expensive. I think I'm shopping for a Bessa R2M as my first RF considering a 25mm, 35mm (eh f/2,5 or the f/1,4) and a 75mm f/2,5 as the lens kit to be in the future. Hmm which is the best performer the 75mm or the 90mm?
Kind regards
Søren
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Soeren,
They are both very, very good, so I'd base the choice on which f.l. you prefer, rather than performance.
As noted elsewhere, I find 35+75 the perfect duo.
Cheers,
R.
yongwhatt64
Newbie
Hi all, Just joined as member.
I really wish to get a RF camera and am now confused as to whether should I get the R3M or the R2M. Also looking to start off with 35mm/1.4 lens.
I've never owned RF before.
Please guide me on the right track.
Thank you.
Cheers.
I really wish to get a RF camera and am now confused as to whether should I get the R3M or the R2M. Also looking to start off with 35mm/1.4 lens.
I've never owned RF before.
Please guide me on the right track.
Thank you.
Cheers.