BillBingham2
Registered User
I find the comparisons with cars funny. A Leica might represent only half the price of a normal car, yet most people buying Leicas M8 probably have cars worth at least 10 times the price of the M8
When I bought my M4-P new and then my M6 new a Leica was around 1/8 of a similar car here in the states. While yes Leica is in a unique niche and at that end of the market there is quite a bit of wiggle room (elasticity) there is a point where the thread will break (e.g. market is saturated, price goes too high).
B2 (;->
CK Dexter Haven
Well-known
For me, there comes a point where it's not a matter of whether or not i CAN afford it. It would just be offensive to actually pay the money. M8. Noctilux. Almost any new Leica M product that i would actually have a use for.
It's like spending time in a hotel. In the mini-bar are Pringles for $6. A can of Coke for $5. A Twix bar for $4.50.... I might come back to the room very late, very tired, very hungry and very thirsty. But, there's no way in hell i'm paying those prices. Of course i can afford them. But, i'm not willing to accept the insult. More a matter of principal than economics.
The Noctilux may be an exceptional lens. The M8 may be capable of exceptional images. But, at some point, you have to examine things in the world and make choices, and i don't see either of those choices as being 'practical.' 99.9% of the professional/commercial/exhibited photography world is using other tools. Is paying more supposed to make me feel like i'm somehow better than them? That i would have some sort of advantage? Apparently, there is no advantage. So, what's it all mean? Pride of ownership? I couldn't be proud of spending $6k on a camera that doesn't do more than a $2000 camera, and producing images that aren't better than those of a 17-year old kid in Poland using an Exacta.
So, the question is "how much is too expensive?" I wouldn't pay more than $3-4000 for a digital rangefinder, and even then it would have to be full-frame. So, i'll wait, like i did before the 5D came out. For a Noctilux, sure, i'd like to try one, but the experience isn't worth more than $2000 for me. I look at it like a Precision Holga. And, the Holga thing never held my interest for more than a few moments.
It's like spending time in a hotel. In the mini-bar are Pringles for $6. A can of Coke for $5. A Twix bar for $4.50.... I might come back to the room very late, very tired, very hungry and very thirsty. But, there's no way in hell i'm paying those prices. Of course i can afford them. But, i'm not willing to accept the insult. More a matter of principal than economics.
The Noctilux may be an exceptional lens. The M8 may be capable of exceptional images. But, at some point, you have to examine things in the world and make choices, and i don't see either of those choices as being 'practical.' 99.9% of the professional/commercial/exhibited photography world is using other tools. Is paying more supposed to make me feel like i'm somehow better than them? That i would have some sort of advantage? Apparently, there is no advantage. So, what's it all mean? Pride of ownership? I couldn't be proud of spending $6k on a camera that doesn't do more than a $2000 camera, and producing images that aren't better than those of a 17-year old kid in Poland using an Exacta.
So, the question is "how much is too expensive?" I wouldn't pay more than $3-4000 for a digital rangefinder, and even then it would have to be full-frame. So, i'll wait, like i did before the 5D came out. For a Noctilux, sure, i'd like to try one, but the experience isn't worth more than $2000 for me. I look at it like a Precision Holga. And, the Holga thing never held my interest for more than a few moments.
Leica and Porsche thank god daily for the chumps who have swallowed that particular lukewarm glass of ersatz Champagne.
Have fun driving around at 55mph in your Porsche and snapping photos out the window with your M8 while listening to rap music on the Bose speakers and text messaging on your iPhone.
So you used the most expensive superfast extreme teles with your Canon DSLR and now use an M8? I suppose your shooting requirements drastically changed?
Have fun driving around at 55mph in your Porsche and snapping photos out the window with your M8 while listening to rap music on the Bose speakers and text messaging on your iPhone.
So you used the most expensive superfast extreme teles with your Canon DSLR and now use an M8? I suppose your shooting requirements drastically changed?
Rayt
Nonplayer Character
kevin m
Veteran
Too funny.
I was stationed in Europe in the 1980's when Mercedes introduced the 190. I remember seeing it at the airport in Frankfurt, calculating the exchange rate and thinking, 'Man, I'm going to get one of these!' Of course when I got back to the states, I found the price was nearly double. Mercedes-Benz released a press statement saying they jacked the price up "to maintain exclusivity in the North American market."
Maybe that's what Leica's trying to do here.
tomasis
Well-known
Frank1969
Member
As I wrote before: the specifications of the M8.2 are not that much different from the Nikon D300 or the Eos 40d. So, with regards to these specifications the price difference is ridiculous Of course Nikon and Canon have a much more cost effective production line compared to Leica and don't have to bet everything on just 1 serious camera and a a line of lenses. Leica of course is the only company offering a digital rangefinder thus the company can charge whatever they want for the camera as long as people are willing to pay for it, thus keeping the superb concept of the rangefinder more exclusive that it should be.
fgianni
Trainee Amateur
For an amateur camera, too much expensive is anything that costs more than what's left of your disposable income.
For a pro camera, too expensive is anything that won't let you recover the money spent on it within the same tax year.
For a pro camera, too expensive is anything that won't let you recover the money spent on it within the same tax year.
Benjamin Marks
Veteran
I find the comparisons with cars funny. A Leica might represent only half the price of a normal car, yet most people buying Leicas M8 probably have cars worth at least 10 times the price of the M8
Yeah. Except me. My cameras' total replacement value is roughly twice that of my cars'. And yeah, I love my M8.
Hey, we all have to believe in something. I believe I will buy another lens. And I'm right there with fgianni -- I think he's nailed it.
Ben
Peter Klein
Well-known
Not everyone who owns an M8 is rich and drives a Porsche. And an M8 is not a DSLR, anymore than a bicycle is a Land Rover.
I have a bunch of M and LTM-mount lenses. I prefer rangefinders to SLRs--I just "see" and focus better that way. So I swallowed hard and bought an M8. It was cheaper than rebuilding my entire system with something I'd like less.
The used market in Leica and CV lenses and accessories is my salvation. Leica may have gotten me as an M8 customer, but not as a repeat customer. Apart from the M8 and one Leica lens I bought new, everything else Leica-related I own is used, a third-party brand, or both.
My reaction to the new Noctilux, 21/1.4 and 24/1.4 lens prices is: Are they crazy? Time will tell whether they will sell enough of them to make it worth it. Leica is going, it seems, for an increasingly smaller market that is willing to pay an increasingly steeper price. They've always done OK doing that before. But at some point, people will say, "there's a limit."
The M8.2 probably is not over that limit. The new lenses may be. The upgrade prices are outrageous. I'm probably not interested, so it's no skin off my nose.
I don't regret buying the M8. For my purposes, it's the best digital camera I have ever tried. I'd have been happier if it cost less, but I am very happy with the camera.
For things the M8 doesn't do well, I can happily use a film M, or last year's midrange DSLR, all bought used. Bottom feeding increases your options.
--Peter
I have a bunch of M and LTM-mount lenses. I prefer rangefinders to SLRs--I just "see" and focus better that way. So I swallowed hard and bought an M8. It was cheaper than rebuilding my entire system with something I'd like less.
The used market in Leica and CV lenses and accessories is my salvation. Leica may have gotten me as an M8 customer, but not as a repeat customer. Apart from the M8 and one Leica lens I bought new, everything else Leica-related I own is used, a third-party brand, or both.
My reaction to the new Noctilux, 21/1.4 and 24/1.4 lens prices is: Are they crazy? Time will tell whether they will sell enough of them to make it worth it. Leica is going, it seems, for an increasingly smaller market that is willing to pay an increasingly steeper price. They've always done OK doing that before. But at some point, people will say, "there's a limit."
The M8.2 probably is not over that limit. The new lenses may be. The upgrade prices are outrageous. I'm probably not interested, so it's no skin off my nose.
I don't regret buying the M8. For my purposes, it's the best digital camera I have ever tried. I'd have been happier if it cost less, but I am very happy with the camera.
For things the M8 doesn't do well, I can happily use a film M, or last year's midrange DSLR, all bought used. Bottom feeding increases your options.
--Peter
Ben Z
Veteran
I bought my M8 new for $4795, just after it was announced the price was going up to $4995. Normally my M.O. with digitals has been to buy previous-generation refurb/demo. I couldn't do that with the M8, so I bit my lip and dove in. I did buy a refurb Epson RD1 but I didn't like it well enough to keep it and deal with anticipated repair issues given Epson's virtual abandonment of it. Now that I have the M8, I have no reason to be in a hurry to buy a new model. I have zero interest in the M8.2, and even if and when Leica comes out with something with improved image quality (sensor, processor, et al) I won't feel compelled to buy one until the frenzy dies down and demos become readily available.
As to lenses, I already have all the lenses I need or want, and then some. At their current new starting prices, I don't ever see myself buying the latest crop of lenses even when they're used. In fact, if I hadn't already had all the lenses I wanted, I probably wouldn't have bought an M8, if it meant paying today's prices for the glass.
As to lenses, I already have all the lenses I need or want, and then some. At their current new starting prices, I don't ever see myself buying the latest crop of lenses even when they're used. In fact, if I hadn't already had all the lenses I wanted, I probably wouldn't have bought an M8, if it meant paying today's prices for the glass.
kevin m
Veteran
I have no intention of buying any new Leica glass, but I am curious to see what results someone with a good eye can achieve with the 21/1.4. That's new territory there.
whitecat
Lone Range(find)er
My only issue with this pricing is this......An M8.2 bought today and put away for thirty years will be useless then. A M3 bought 50 yrs ago and put away until today is worth a nice return.
sfokevin
Established
50 years ago the M3 forum most likely said the M3 was flawed and would be worthless once Leica released the M4...
jackal2513
richbroadbent
here here
normal consumers need to feel that they are agreeing upon a two way bargain... there needs to be a sense of give and take
but having collosal prices just arrogantly dictated to you just gets my back up
Gary Sandhu
Well-known
I have a car with spark plugs that cost over $125 each and there are 12 cylinders.... I saw a billfold for over $3000 at the Hermes store .... Leicas are cheap. I think it's the 80/20 rule Leica style: to get that last bit of 20%, you have to spend 80 times more
itf
itchy trigger finger
I have a car with spark plugs that cost over $125 each and there are 12 cylinders.... I saw a billfold for over $3000 at the Hermes store .... Leicas are cheap. I think it's the 80/20 rule Leica style: to get that last bit of 20%, you have to spend 80 times more
I didn't know Leica made spark plugs!
akiralx
Established
My experience is almost identical to yours - used Leica and CZ/CV lenses make up most of my system, and I've no real interest in these new releases, apart from the Noctilux maybe driving down used 50mm Summilux prices.
And I travel to work by public transport, not by car - with the M8 everyday.
Benjamin Marks
Veteran
Leica is just following the business model they have always followed - nice gear at a premium. For me, there is no sense in getting worked up over it. I completely agree with the characterization of the M3 as being on the other side of some price-to-value-over-time divide. I have an M2, M3, M5, M6 and think that there is probably at least one among them that will survive me. My M8? I love using it, but the way I am using it, I don't think the shutter will last 10 years at this rate. My main interest vis Leica is that they be around to fix/replace the shutter when it goes. If their current zany high cost, low-volume model gets them there, then more power to them.
Ben Marks
below: Noctilux at F:1 (worth every penny then . . . but now?)
Ben Marks
below: Noctilux at F:1 (worth every penny then . . . but now?)