Just starting into Leica system?

S

spersky

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Hello,

Pretend you are looking for a really high quality portable camera system. Would you recommend an M8 for someone who has no leica lenses at the moment.

Here is some background about myself. I have a very nice DSLR system. I owned an M7 with a leica 35mm 1.4 and 50mm 1.4 and 90mm 2.0. I really loved the quality and the feel of the camera. I began to dislike film in general and decided to sell it all for a very nice DSLR system. I do miss the simple Leica photography. I was planning to buy the M8 and about 6K worth of lenses to get back into the system (a huge investment). The M8 debacle has obviously deterred me from that course of action.

I took some of the money I was saving to dump on the Leica system, and upgraded my DSLR system.

After spending some intense time with my DSLR system and the upgrades, I find that the quality is unsurpassed and extremely easy to get the results I want. So, is it even reasonable to buy into that Leica system considering I have no lenses at all.

I understand that this monsterous Canon system is a huge pain in the ass to carry anywhere. I usually just take the camera and a lens I think I will need for a specific photo shoot. I never do street photography. I don't like taking pictures of strangers anyway.

Is there any reasonable argument for me to get back into Leica in the first place?

Current gear:
Canon 1Ds Mark II
70-200L f/2.8 USM IS
24-70L f/2.8 USM
85mmL f/1.2
1.4x II tele-converter
580EX Flash

Finally, Does anyone knmow people that are buying the M8 that does not own a few M lense already?

Regards,
Steve
 
New to Leica...

New to Leica...

Hi Steve,

I'm in a similar position, as I've used mostly SLR/DSLRs to this point. I am planning to buy an M8, and start from scratch with respect to lenses. You might want to review the thread which I strated entitled: Noctilux, 50mm 1.4, or 50mm 2.0?

Many experienced Leica users responded with really useful insights.

Best regards,

Tony C.
 
You offer no indications of the type of photography or photographic projects you pursue. You offer no examples of your work. You have what is arguably the best, most versatile, and most accurate digital slr system on the planet (with some wonderful lenses).

Now you think you want a Leica instead because it's lighter to carry? (Actually, more likely because you've been hanging around M8 chatter sites.) Yet, by your admission, you do not pursue the type of photography for which Leica M cameras were originally developed 50 years ago.

Fetishism is so characteristic of photo forum chatter and so tiresome. Young men, usually in their 20's or 30's, asking other young men to validate expenditures.

Steve, you must ask yourself where your interests really lie. Are you a camera collector or do you want to pursue photographic projects? Do you just like the exhilaration of buying and opening new boxes of stuff or do you take greater enjoyment from producing something with it?

Changing cameras might better suit someone's style. But it will never make someone a more skilled photographer.

Sorry for being rather rudely frank but it's the truth.
 
Ouch....

Ouch....

Ken Tanaka said:
You offer no indications of the type of photography or photographic projects you pursue. You offer no examples of your work. You have what is arguably the best, most versatile, and most accurate digital slr system on the planet (with some wonderful lenses).

Now you think you want a Leica instead because it's lighter to carry? (Actually, more likely because you've been hanging around M8 chatter sites.) Yet, by your admission, you do not pursue the type of photography for which Leica M cameras were originally developed 50 years ago.

Fetishism is so characteristic of photo forum chatter and so tiresome. Young men, usually in their 20's or 30's, asking other young men to validate expenditures.

Steve, you must ask yourself where your interests really lie. Are you a camera collector or do you want to pursue photographic projects? Do you just like the exhilaration of buying and opening new boxes of stuff or do you take greater enjoyment from producing something with it?

Changing cameras might better suit someone's style. But it will never make someone a more skilled photographer.

Sorry for being rather rudely frank but it's the truth.
Click to expand...


Being a little rough there aren't ya Ken? Gee.....
 
Back and forth, maybe try renting to see what you like. I owned DSLR (Pentax K100D) a nice camera but I felt like I was lunging. So I went back to RF. Actually I never left. I am saving up for an M8 or whatever else comes along by the time I have the money.
 
Ken,

I do not perceive you being rude at all. Your honesty is appreciated. I have found no substitite for the quality I get from my current DSLR setup. It does not mean I would not appreciate the M8 or M9 with equal quality in a much lighter package. I admit my current photographic pursuits do not lend much to the RF approach. I do find that I am less apt to take my DSLR along in certain places where I would likely take a much lighter Leica system along. So, I guess the question is? Are those missed pictures worth the 10-11k investment to get into the Leica system again.
 
spersky said:
Ken,

I do not perceive you being rude at all. Your honesty is appreciated. I have found no substitite for the quality I get from my current DSLR setup. It does not mean I would not appreciate the M8 or M9 with equal quality in a much lighter package. I admit my current photographic pursuits do not lend much to the RF approach. I do find that I am less apt to take my DSLR along in certain places where I would likely take a much lighter Leica system along. So, I guess the question is? Are those missed pictures worth the 10-11k investment to get into the Leica system again.
Click to expand...

I, too, encounter many situations in which my larger cameras would not be appropriate or comfortable to use. The core question, which you actually posed above in different terms, is what investment would be appropriate to equip oneself for such situations. This "investment" must not be measured solely financially but also in terms of your own comfort with, and accustomization to, a new camera system.

As you and I have discussed in another thread, the M8 has some birth defects . But even if it was perfect, would a rangefinder camera be the best solution for a "small, inconspicuous" camera for most people? The short answer is no. For someone who has been using rangefinder cameras regularly for many years an M8 would represent the shortest hop to digital imaging. But rf photography requires some skill development and the willingness to forgo many of the feature conveniences that have become de rigeur in cameras for years. I often use an M7 as a refreshing change of pace but not for critical situations.

Again, I've no idea what you consider a "shoot" or what type of photography you pursue. Your remarks about the 1DsII being a "huge pain in the ass to carry anywhere" suggest to me that you are basically a casual snap-shooter. This camera, with its 12v battery and its built-to-take-abuse heft, is certainly overkill for casual snapping.

But that fact itself is not a plausible argument to switch to a Leica M8.

Why not sell it and get a 5D or even a 30D? Both have much smaller and lighter bodies, both offer outstanding image potentials, and both are compatible with your existing lenses? Still to big? Well, not really. The fact is that a 5D with a 50mm lens (or similar) is not really much larger or heavier than an M7 with a 35mm or 21mm lens. I would also say that a Leica draws much more attention today than a small slr. It isn't that the Leica carries any real snob appeal; it's not recognizable outside the relatively small segment of the public that knows anything about cameras. But my M7 tends to attract attention because people think I'm using some type of antique camera (which, I suppose, I am) and often ask what it is.

To answer your final question concerning who's buying the M8, I only personally know one person who has purchased one. He does, indeed, already own several M lenses. (He's also already encountered three technical issues with the camera in his first week of ownership.) According to a local dealer all of their pre-orders were (to their knowledge) placed by current M owners. I'm sure that the camera will attract some newcomers to rangefinder photography. But, personally, I doubt that many will stick with it for more than a year or two. The Internet hyperbole will settle down, infections of gottahavititis will slow, Christmas credit card statements will arrive, eBay will erupt with M8's, and the folks who really love rangefinders will be the ones still using the M8 by this time next year.
 
For years I had been hoping to find a digital camera that I actually would want to use. Nobody made one. Then earlier this year I started encountering rumors about the M8 and I was intrigued. I hadn't used a rangefinder in 30+ years, though. So I found a used M4-P for a song and bought it along with one used lens. Just something to play with to see if I liked it. Well, I did. After the M8 was announced and info about it began to come out I made the decision to get one and ordered it. Then I began buying lenses. I now have five used Leitz/Leica lenses - 28/2.8, 50/2, 75/2, 90/2, 135/2.8 and a CV 15/4.5. All of them together probably cost about as much as the M8 body. It has helped revitalize my lifelong interest in photography, an interest that had waned in recent years.

FWIW, I have no interest whatsoever in street photography, never have. And quite frankly I don't really see why people get so excited about different kinds of viewfinders, either. I have shot thousands of photos with rangefinders, SLRs, TLRs, press cameras and view cameras. Yeah, there are differences, but it is all photography.

So I bought an M8 and I didn't have a Leica lens collection. But I do now and I am really glad I did it.

And Ken Tanaka could well be right, but I don't really think so.
 
Yes, if I was looking for a high quality portable camera, had decent funds and apprechiated the benefits of an RF camera, I would go for an M8, even if I had no lenses.

I might not do it immediately, but wait a while for the dust to settle a little bit. I would get a single lens and use that for at least a year. There is a huge line of lenses to choose from, some very cheap and some very expensive. New or second hand, pick you choice.

I would not keep two expensive high end systems. Instead I would get a small digicam to complement the system I choose (if needed).

/Håkan
 
Do you use the Canon DSLR now? If not, why?

Are you happy with the results?

Is it in the closet when you see that photo that you wished that you had made? If so, would you have carried a Leica (0r anyother camera) instead of the DSLR?

There are times that I leave my DSLR at home when I go to work ... and then wish that I had lugged it upon witnessing a scene that I would have recorded had I brought a camera. I have some good M lenses which I will put to good use soon when my M8 arrives. I no longer enjoy the darkroom work, so digital has reawakened the spark of photography within me. The Leica will be with me more during the week when I am hauling equipment to the office and I am looking forward to reacquainting my eye with the M viewfinder.

I have seen some inspiring pictures with the camera that you own:
http://www.pbase.com/ageojo for example. Dr. Ong sports most shots with a 24-70 L or a 70-300 DO - very good lenses that if you search forums, will get knocked for various flaws or "not prime" quality. Still there are a lot of very good photos taken with them - go figure.

So take technical discussions with a grain of salt - if you are using the DSLR and are very happy - I might think very long and hard about spending more for another camera that likely will not exceed the one you own technically all other things being equal.

My 2 cents
 
Do you use the Canon DSLR now? If not, why? Areyou happy with the results?

I use it very often, and I am very happy with the results. Best results I could ever ask for.


Is it in the closet when you see that photo that you wished that you had made? If so, would you have carried a Leica (0r anyother camera) instead of the DSLR?

Yes, that happenes, and I used to carry my M7 almost anywhere.

I like the idea about getting a 5d with a small prime lens. I think that will be my next option.

Regards,
Steve
 
Just wanted to add Mr. Puts opinion via proxy to this thread


Erwin Puts: http://www.imx.nl/photosite/leica/M8_2/t007.html

I do not have the intention to pursue the comparison Canon-Leica ad nauseam. Suffice it to say that Leica with its smaller sensor and thin glass plate presents results that up to A3 can compare quite well with the Canon images and do present a different look. If you are a number-crunching person, you might say that the Canon system has the edge even with less superior lenses.
 
i fully understand the "big camera" issue... i will also add that i have taken some of my best work with a very small camera. a camera you can take every where is truly a valuable tool (no matter what your "style" is). i shoot on an m6 ttl (various glass), nikon d1x (various primes) and a ricoh gr1. i never leave home without a camera and the gr1 seems to be with me more often than not. PERHAPS you could expand your dslr system and consider a grd or something along those lines? canon g7? it's those cameras that fit in a pocket that'll catch the winners!
and if you can afford an m8 and stable of glass then by all means go for it... and post regularly here so i can live vicariously through you.
cheers
john
 
Steve: you don't seem like you have a real or immediate need for the M8 or RF. Spending 5K on a body and a few more thousands on lenses seems like an awfully large committement, but that is a call only you can make. I would ditch the 1DS body and get a 5D...
 
Why haven't you kept the leica lens ?

Why haven't you kept the leica lens ?

First : buy a zorki 3 or zorki 3 M (less than 100$) with jupiter 8 or 3, or a collapsible lens. Touch your camera. Do see if you get the exctement back. If not buy a Canon 5D and develop your strength with SLR.
Second : if you feel the old good feeling coming back, begin to look at the best lenses Leica or Zeiss to go on the M digital.
Third: it 's up to you to go for the M8. I'd wait till begin 2008...:cool: :cool: :bang:
 
Question, do you plan to use the M8 for casual snap-shooting?
If yes, why not give the new Leica DLUX-3 a try? Here are some compelling reasons:

- It's the anti-Canon 1D in terms of bulk
- It's one-tenth of M8 in terms of price (so it won't eat too much into your future M8 budget)
- It's a Leica (red dot included)
- It has manual focusing, wide-picture ratio (yum!), a decent 2.8 ASPH Leica lens, optical IS (cool!)
- It's digital (you said you're moving away from film)

And see if you use it a lot in a couple of months. Who knows, you may not even think of the M8 once you use it a lot.

DISCLAIMER: I don't own a dlux3.... yet, but that's the camera that I'll get once I sell enough pictures (quite a different perspective from some people who has the financial blessings to afford an M8 just for casual shooting :) )

For now, I love my Olympus XA which has a permanent place in my jeans' pocket.
 
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