Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Kevin,
First, don't knock Morgan. They're doing nicely too.
Second, if 'everyone who drives a car' knows the name Ferrari -- probably a slight exaggeration -- then I'd say that rather a lot of photographers know the name Leica, too.
If Ferrari troubles you, consider Bristol or Rolls Royce. I don't think that wedding hire and hearses probably contribute much to Rolls-Royce's image.
Cheers,
Roger
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Roger Hicks
Veteran
And you get better pics from a camera you like using. This is a point that non-M8 owners tend to forget about when it comes to M8s.
Cheers,
R.
kevin m
Veteran
That's cool. Seriously. I bailed on Leica as my primary system not long after the M8 was introduced, and I miss working with them. The simplicity of it, the excellent lenses. I even miss the sheer terror of shooting the recessional knowing I only had a few frames to get it right.
If they make a few improvement with the M8 I'd consider going back, but for now my personal "pleasure" M-mount camera will have to remain my M2.
aizan
Veteran
reasons not to like the m8: shutter+motor noise, lack of advance lever deteriorates ergonomics, substandard shutter release and lcd...
Riccis
Well-known
As stated by Dave, I use M8s for my wedding work. I just released a new version of my site (www.riccisvalladares.com) where only one portfolio was not shot with the M8. I've been using it for over a year now to document weddings throughout the US and the world with no complaints on my part and specially my clients.
While there are not too many wedding photographers out there using the M8, I know that some are slowly starting to use it for some of their wedding work (and not necessarily for fun as Ned states is his case). I met a lot of fellow wedding photographers at the Leica booth at the WPPI tradeshow in Vegas last March and believe it or not, have been receiving emails from some of them stating they went ahead and bought an M8 and are thrilled with it for some of their wedding coverage.
Another big name within the industry using M8s is Andrew Niesen from LaCour and Jamie Roberts from Canada.
BTW, I will be shooting a very high profile wedding which eventually you'll see on TV with my trusty M8.
Cheers,
While there are not too many wedding photographers out there using the M8, I know that some are slowly starting to use it for some of their wedding work (and not necessarily for fun as Ned states is his case). I met a lot of fellow wedding photographers at the Leica booth at the WPPI tradeshow in Vegas last March and believe it or not, have been receiving emails from some of them stating they went ahead and bought an M8 and are thrilled with it for some of their wedding coverage.
Another big name within the industry using M8s is Andrew Niesen from LaCour and Jamie Roberts from Canada.
BTW, I will be shooting a very high profile wedding which eventually you'll see on TV with my trusty M8.
Cheers,
M. Valdemar
Well-known
I have a huge collection of older M-mount and LTM lenses.
I was excited to get the R-D1 to have a chance to use the lenses on a modern digital camera and I carried the camera everywhere for two years.
I bought a lot MORE lenses to try, and I enjoy them.
The two R-D1's I own are getting long in the tooth.
All I want is a reliable digital platform for the old lenses, preferably with a full frame sensor.
I'm not crazy about the optical rangefinder in the R-D1 or the M8, and I would like something that would give electronic focus confirmation at the "film plane", without having to rely on the optical rangefinder which can be inaccurate given the characteristics of an electronic sensor.
It doesn't have to look or work like an M-Leica.
I was excited to get the R-D1 to have a chance to use the lenses on a modern digital camera and I carried the camera everywhere for two years.
I bought a lot MORE lenses to try, and I enjoy them.
The two R-D1's I own are getting long in the tooth.
All I want is a reliable digital platform for the old lenses, preferably with a full frame sensor.
I'm not crazy about the optical rangefinder in the R-D1 or the M8, and I would like something that would give electronic focus confirmation at the "film plane", without having to rely on the optical rangefinder which can be inaccurate given the characteristics of an electronic sensor.
It doesn't have to look or work like an M-Leica.
kevin m
Veteran
Nice attempt at sleight-of-hand, there.
The analogy isn't correct, and even your distorted version doesn't come close. It would only work if the majority of people who own cameras, not "photographers," knew the name Leica, and they most assuredly don't.
That's closer to the truth. They're both brands that rely on "intangibles" and snob appeal for sales more than they do measurable performance.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Riccis,
Just because you earn a living with your M8s, what makes you think you have the right to argue with people who don't, but know better anyway?
I don't know what proportion of my published pics come from my M8. Nor do I care. Probably at least half nowadays. But what do I know? All I'm trying to do is earn a living too.
Unlike you, I try to avoid weddings. I only do them when I can't get out of them. If one of your oldest friends insists, how do you argue? The only way I'll do a wedding is if I'll offend someone more by not shooting than I will by shooting (unlike you, I am no wedding photographer). I've shot maybe 6 in over 30 years (all 'clients' very happy). But I reckon there'll be one more yet, and yes, I'll be using the M8. Unless there's an M9 by then.
Cheers,
Roger
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Kevin,
You do love loaded phrases, don't you? 'Expensive toys' and 'snob appeal'?
Have you ever driven a Bristol? Or a Rolls Royce? Or ridden a Hesketh? Or indeed taken many pictures with an M8?
If you don't appreciate anything other than brutal utilitarianism, that's your privilege. But I grow increasingly weary of your apparent view that anyone who doesn't think like you is a snob with more money than sense; and I am sure I am not alone in this.
Cheers,
Roger
kevin m
Veteran
...and I grow weary of your condescension, your elitism and your refusal to allow that perhaps - just perhaps! - there's a world of photography that exists outside the circle of your acquaintance.
So we'll call it even.
mn4367
Established
Roger,
why is my opinion irrelevant just because I currently can't afford one? Maybe my English isn't good enough to get it right but if I read this kind of comments it leaves the taste of being subclass just because I'm not in the "M8-owners-club". I didn't criticise Leica, I don't instruct Mr. Kaufmann what to do and I think there is nothing substantial wrong with the M8. In fact I wish Leica all good and I hope that they stay profitable in business for decades just for the culture and quality they stand for.
As I stated before, I'd like to have one. And perhaps I'll buy it if there won't be a comparable (and more affordable) alternative. But whatever reason forces Leica to ask that price, in my opinion for 5k$ in some aspects it still (or maybe now) isn't good enough.
Like you said before, the M8 is not perfect. Given today's technology I expect just a little more perfection (not much), especially from Leica
. And being an M8 owner or not, I can easily judge that.Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Michael,
Commercially, from Leica's point of view, for the same reason my opinion is irrelevant about Ferraris or Rolls Royces. I can fantasize about them; I can think of reasons why I would or wouldn't buy one; but unless I have the money to put where my mouth is, why should Ferrari or Rolls Royce care in the slightest what I think?
From what I can see, I'd really like one of the new 39 megapixel Hasselblads. But as I can't afford one and have never tried one, my opinion is not worth much to anyone.
Once I'd tried one, whether I could afford it or not, my views might change -- and they'd be worth a bit more, too, because I'd be speaking from experience. Not worth a lot more, but a bit. But because Leicas are affordable (relatively, as compared with a new Rolls Royce or 39 megapixel Hasselblad) a lot of people spend a lot more time thinking about them. Not always productive time, it must be said.
This is not a personal attack, or relegating you to a 'sub-class'. It's a simple statement of commercial reality. I apologize if you took it otherwise.
Cheers,
Roger
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Kevin,
This sort of sums it up, really.
You see Leicas as elitist -- 'espensive toys' -- so you don't like them. Likewise Rolls-Royces: 'snob appeal'.
I am flattered to be included in such distinguished company.
Cheers,
Roger
kevin m
Veteran
Do you trouble yourself to read what anybody else posts? Can you not see the camera in my avatar?
I've owned several bodies and more lenses than I can remember. And I just bought an M2 because I missed its simplicity and beautiful finder. Why would I own multiple copies of a camera I don't like?
The M8, IMO, is just poor value relative to its cost, that's all. I'd like to see some improvements made before I buy one. I'd like to think that as a long-time Leica owner, and someone who used them professionally, that my opinion might carry some weight. But evidently, judging by your posts, the moment a person utters a critical word their opinion no longer matters. So Leica is to only accept input from uncritical people with deep pockets.
[sarcasm] Sounds like a recipe for success! [/sarcasm]
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Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Kevin,
I apologize. I should have said, "You see Leica M8s as expensive toys."
I am still flattered to be in such company.
Cheers,
Roger
Ororaro
Well-known
Kevin,
In case you didn't know: It's not about how many USED leicas you purchased and owned. It's about buying NEW, giving money to Leica so they can invest it back into R&D and create a product you might like.
You have to talk with your money. Buying used makes you a tourist in the corporate world. Didn't you know that?
In case you didn't know: It's not about how many USED leicas you purchased and owned. It's about buying NEW, giving money to Leica so they can invest it back into R&D and create a product you might like.
You have to talk with your money. Buying used makes you a tourist in the corporate world. Didn't you know that?
Roger Hicks
Veteran
This is a most peculiar rant. Are you saying that everyone should stop buying new Leicas, so that the company goes bust and there are no more second-hand Leicas for those who can't afford new ones?
And, of course, the 'give away your goods to the poor' argument stops somewhere. Have you filled your house with homeless people? Sold all your cameras to feed the poor?
Most of us are not St. Frances of Assisi, and spend our money where we think best. Do you not do the same?
Cheers,
Roger
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
He was just saying that you shouldn't buy a Leica because you feel sorry for an ailing business....that if you want to do charitable work you should help poor people. If you need, want, and can afford a new Leica then buy one for that reason, not because you feel that buying used is 'wrong' because it doesn't financially support the company to buy used.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Christopher,
Ah, I see. That didn't occur to me because it didn't occur to me that anyone would feel sorry for a company. If they like the product, and want the company to stay in business, then obviously they have to buy the product new, but that strikes me as enlightened self interest, not charity.
Likewise, It hadn't occurred to me that buying used was in any way 'wrong'. The real puzzle to me, though, is that so many people think they can run Leica better than Leica can.
Of course Leica will pay attention to anything that is said about the company; but the weight they attach to what is said must inevitably vary according to several things. One of the most important must surely be whether the people in question know very much about running a camera company. Another is whether the people making the criticism (or offering the praise) are actual customers; potential customers; or hot-air merchants.
Cheers,
Roger
tmfabian
I met a man once...
Ned, I have to hand it to you, your threads spark better entertainment than anyone could ever script. To be able to see such a simple poll drive this much debate and name calling is sublime, I tip my hat to you sir.
On a related note, doesn't Leica continue to make parts for most of it's cameras...thus buying used could imply the necessity to acquire said parts in order to properly maintain the used camera and dropping money back in leicas budget?
On a related note, doesn't Leica continue to make parts for most of it's cameras...thus buying used could imply the necessity to acquire said parts in order to properly maintain the used camera and dropping money back in leicas budget?