Kiev 2a shutter repair... First attempt at surgery

[nicholas]

The winding mechanism isn't as smooth as my black '63 Kiev 4,

I just picked up a Kiev 4, in very good shape with terrible leather. The stuff was hanging off of the camera and it looked like someone tried to glue it back on with a stick. None of that was described on Ebay... A couple of screws are missing but everything works quite well. The shutter looks and sounds strong and accurate. Good finder that is dead on at infinity and at .9 meters. No takeup spool, again, not described on Ebay. Chrome finish is excellent, no scratches or dings anywhere. BUT, after cocking the shutter and trying to change speeds down from 125th is a bear. It gets harder and harder going down to B. I mean tough man. Is there anything I can do to improve this? Is this a feature of this camera? I had a Contax II in the early 50's, beautiful piece, loved it but the new M3 had just come out and the lure was much too strong so... goodbuy Contax. I don't recall changing shutter speeds being so difficult, but then maybe it was. Anyway, I think I can make this piece look great and function well. I've ordered new leather from Camera leather in UK. Now if I can ease up the shutter winding this thing will look nice next to my Contax G2. Thanks for any help.
nicholas

 

[physiognomy]

Sorry Nicholas, I don't know anything about the winding mechanism yet... I would take a look at Russ Pinchbeck's cool site (click). The struggle you describe to change the shutter speeds is definitely not normal from my experience. I'm sure it is something that could be improved though with the right know-how.

Good luck with the leather recover job!

Peter

 

[Xmas]

The rangefinder or viewfinder window can be sourced from microscope cover glass, steal from offsprings toy, or old 2x2 glass slide chrome film, beg from oldster...

Diamond cutter, saftey glasses, and band aids all you need. The edges can be flattened off on grinding stone or flame polished if you are adept. The band aids are good...

I use black board paint on edges, primarily to avoid discarding the glass, which I seem to do...

The vernier says mine was .0475x.6x.65.

If you are swaping tops between kievs the sleeve or bush for the rewind knob shaft is longer in some metered cameras but as it is only secured by three screws to the main chassis you can swap it as well. The chassis screws are tight so dont mar the heads with the wring screwdriver before you realise they are tight...

The slow speeds do need more effort and this may be a problem if the shutter is running with too much pretension, one may need to remove all lube from shutter and back of tension, some people fix cameras by winding up pretension rather than using Zippo fluid. the shutter will make more noise with more pretension.

Noel

 

[physiognomy]

Sorry I didn't reply to your post earlier Noel... Thanks for the advice! Your help has been a big source of encouragement for this project...

More pictures will follow, but I just have to say I DID IT !!!! This afternoon/evening I spent quite a few hours swapping over the shutters from my parts Kiev 4 to the 2a with broken ribbons. Since I was putting so much effort into dismantling 2 kievs to make one working camera I also cleaned up the crome & touched up the black paint... I think it looks pretty good!

And here it is with the old broken shutter... Swapping the shutters turned out to be fairly easy (although time consuming!) following the instructions on Russ Pinchbeck's Kiev Survival site (click for link).

Overall the swap was a big success & I definitely breathed life into this 49 year old Kiev. It all seems to be functioning pretty much perfectly... No left over parts either!!! (I kind of surprised myself there 😀 ) I also have some confidence now going in & changing out the ribbons on the old shutter... I'd really like to get it going again because it looks to be much better made than the one from the '74 Kiev 4.

Thanks again to all those that have helped!

Peter

 

[winoto]

peter,
congradulations on the success of your Kiev shutter adventure. very admirable, i'm jealous. despite all the help from internet sites and Noel's input, i was unable to resurrect my contax II shutter. hopefully my kievs will not go down the path of its brethren.

noel,
great idea on the rangefinder/viewfinder window from the microscope cover glass. will have to raid the lab now.

luis

 

[dexdog]

Phys, congratulations on a job well done!

 

[dmr]

Congratulations, P. 🙂

Even though I don't have a Kiev or a Contax, I've been following this thread. I had good luck repairing a Canon a while ago, and I recently resurrected a dropped flash unit, so I know the sense of accomplishment you feel. 🙂

 

[Xmas]

Luis

I think resetting the shutter is simpler than you may think, We need some one to indicate how to slide the top roller from the shutter assembly then all you do is search tooth by tooth for the correct alignment. Peter may have had to do this, But Russ certaintly known.

Russ...?

I'm too cautious to misalign mine I stick tape to keep them together. I have trays full of Kiev and Contax pieces not had time to reassemble.

Noel

 

[physiognomy]

Thanks everyone! I think I jumped the gun a little last night when I said "It all seems to be functioning pretty much perfectly" ... This morning I was proudly playing with the camera & remembered that I forgot to reattach the flash sync wire. Not that I would use it, but since it would have taken me a couple of extra minutes I could kick myself! I guess it is something that I'll do when I put the original shutter back in it...

One thing that I briefly mentioned was the differences I found between the '74 donor shutter & the '57 original... When I get a chance I might take a few pics & write up a little description, but I was quite surprised at the obvious deterioration in workmanship over the years. An example that comes to mind is the flash sync arm that is actuated when the lower curtain drops during firing. In the original shutter it is a brass (?) 'arm' that probably would never cause problems, but it seems that latter on the arm tapered into a thin wire that in my case nearly caused disaster when it caught up one side of the lower curtain during winding (Important note here... don't try winding or firing the shutter when the film plane casting is removed!). There are lots of other things I could mention, but without images it would be too obscure.

I wanted to share some pictures of the dismantling process for those that are interested... The first one is removal of the film rewind. Not much to it really, but if doing it again for the first time I will take note of the initial amount of resistance on the rewind knob so that you know how tight to make it during reassembly... I think I may have tightened mine too much.

The second one shows the external chrome top plate removed to uncover the metal top casting. No wonder Kiev's are a little weighty as this is quite the chunk of metal! I removed the shoe for cleaning at this stage (it's amazing how much dirt accumulates under there!), but it is not necessary to get the casting off.

The third pic shows the top casting removed... I put the film counter dial back in place for this shot as a reminder where everything sat. It was only a matter of removing 6 or 7 more screws & the whole shutter assembly could be taken out. I have another 3 shots of the removal & reassembly, but I'll put those in another post latter on this afternoon or tonight.

Peter

 

[physiognomy]

The next shot I have to share of the shutter swap shows the original broken shutter completely removed from the body... Russ' site mentions that it might need a little bit of 'wiggling' to get it out, and I agree, but it did come away fairly easily. I was so interested in checking it out that I forgot about the possibility of the upper curtain rod falling out. Luckily for me it seemed to stay put pretty well despite me turning it on end a few times. Next time I will definitely heed the advice to stick some tape over the end of it. I think it might be a good idea to leave it there to avoid problems if there is need to remove the shutter again.

This picture shows the working Kiev 4 shutter ready to be put into the 2a. I found that it was definitely much easier to remove a shutter the 2nd time around. When I took out the first one I took pictures at each step in case I forgot something, but I found that it really is pretty easy to follow Russ' instructions if you lay out each part you remove in sequence. By the time you do it a couple of times it becomes more intuitive & I feel confident I could do it now without checking what to do next after each screw... I definitely did gain a huge amount of respect for people like G'man, Oleg & others who fiddle cameras all the time! Following good instructions is one thing, but the ability to search out problems & then fixing them just blows me away! Without instructions on which screws were necessary to remove I'm sure I would have had all sorts of things falling off that I would have had no chance of putting back together!

The last pic I have shows the working shutter placed in to the body... At this stage I just couldn't wait & all I wanted to do was wind the thing & see if I had succeeded. Maybe it is just my shutter, but I definitely would advise against doing this! It wound & fired ok, but not having the film casting to guide it (?)the lower curtain was pushed outward when the upper curtain dropped & they didn't rejoin properly. At first I didn't notice this & would have had big problems if I just put it all back together. When trying to wind it again the flash sync arm caught up the left side of the lower curtain & held it until the two curtains seperated. Luckily the shutter still fired & was able to lift the lower curtain away from where it was caught & sort it out, but it was something I'd definitely rather have avoided. Once the film plane casting was back in place everything seemed to work fine & has so after 100 or so test firings at different speeds.

Peter

 

[polval]

I have 1958 "Kiev" 3a but the shutter is broken. Shutter ribbons are ok, but it cannot be wound properly. Maybe it is reparable, I will certainly try to do so, but then again, swapping the original with working shutter will be a lot easier. I have a chance to buy a donor "Kiev" but the question is are the shutters from different "Kievs" compatible?

 

[Dez]

Congratulations to Peter on getting the Kiev back into working order again. It is by no means a trivial repair, but isn't as difficult as it originally appears. When replacing ribbons in a Kiev, the Arsenal stuff is your best bet, as the 1/8" stuff in fabric stores will fray in a fairly short time. Kiev cameras used slightly thicker and rougher tape material than the Contax, and typically cranked up the spring pressure a bit to compensate.

I have done a number of shutter repairs in Kiev and Contax cameras, and there are a few things I have learned, usually the hard way. Unfortunately, the Contax will be much trickier. The material used in the curtain tapes is absolutely critical, and the design of the camera gives very little margin for the properties of the tape. The Contax/Kiev shutter winds by cranking up the two curtains latched together, until ramps by the side of the shutter aperture release the latches; at the same time the leading curtain is retained by a hook that grabs the latch at the centre of the curtain. The trailing curtain continues to roll up onto the upper drum until it goes far enough to create the correct slit width for the selected shutter speed. Thus both slit width and spring tension vary with shutter speed. Speeds of 1/50 and slower work the same way, only a complex series of gears and levers add one of two escapements to the operation of the shutter, slowing down the operation. The weakness here is that the release of the leading and trailing curtains come from two separate mechanisms that are not positively coordinated- it is not possible to adjust the camera so that both releases are exactly simultaneous. The design relies on the friction of the tape in the slots of the leading curtain to maintain the slit width throughout the travel of the curtains. So it would be good if there were lots of friction there, right? BUT after the leading curtain has reached the bottom of the frame, excess friction will slow the travel of the trailing curtain, leading to the common problem of overexposure toward the bottom of the frame (i.e. top of the photo). The choice of tape material is a "Goldilocks" decision. Too thick or rough and the trailing curtain will slow down; too loose and the slit width will be wrong. You will sometimes see recommendations that the shutter button of a Contax be pushed quickly- this is why.

With too-thin material, such as the Japanese tape which is typically about 0.07-0.09mm thick, one of two things can happen. If the leading curtain is released first, you may get gross overexposures. If the trailing curtain is released first, the slit may close up before the leading curtain is released, leading to blank exposures. There is an easy test for this problem: just use the self-timer, which releases the shutter very slowly. If you get consistent and complete exposures with the self-timer, you don't have the problem.

I find that using the thin Japanese tape on a Contax or Kiev will lead to the above problem. I have seen recommendations about peening the slots on the leading curtain to increase friction just the right amount to hold the slit width correct. I have succeeded in making this work once, but it is very fiddly. The correct Contax tape is approximately 0.2mm thick, and 3mm wide, and is woven very flat and smooth. I have never found an exact substitute. 1/8" tape for clothing use will fray as I mentioned, and has a rough surface. The Arsenal tape is about 0.03mm thick, and not very smooth. It works OK in the Kiev cameras, which have slightly wider slots in the leading curtain. When restoring a Contax shutter, I typically use the Arsenal material, but slightly file the insides of the slots to smooth the surfaces and reduce friction. This is still not a great solution, but is the best I have been able to find. The few people who have any of the original Contax tape will not part with it , and I don't blame them.

I have found the Peter Tooke book "Zeiss Contax Repair Manual Models II and III" to be quite helpful in understanding the shutter operation, and correct installation of the tapes.

As always, I am on the lookout for any source of better material for the job. Any advice on where I can find non-stretchy, 0.02 x 3mm fabric tape would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,
Dez

 

[oftheherd]

Great thread! I don't recall having seen it before, or maybe just forgot because I didn't need info on how to work on a Kiev. Mine is the Kiev 4am. The top and bottom shutter curtains don't stay together when winding. I think I remember seeing something on the Kiev Survival Site, but seem to remember it wasn't too clear on a fix. I will have to go back and check that.

In the meantime, anyone had that problem and know the fix? Any help appreciated. It's funny in a way, I didn't use my Kiev all that much. I didn't feel bonded to it for some reason, even though I was happy with the results when I did. Now that is doesn't work, I feel like using it more and more. Go figure.

 

[Dez]

Make sure the trailing curtain goes all the way down when it fires. If it doesn't seat properly it won't latch onto the bottom curtain. If that's OK, your problem is almost certainly the strip of spring stock across the top of the leading curtain. It has little claws on the ends that engage in slots in the trailing curtain. Take off the back of the film gate to get at the shutter, then remove the two tiny screws securing the spring strip. Bend the claws ever so slightly down (i.e. toward the front of the camera) and put everything back together. If the curtains don't want to separate when they hit the top of the film gate, you bent them too much. Check the Kiev Survival site for advice on taking the back of the film gate off. It's not difficult, but there are a few non-intuitive things you need to do.

Cheers,
Dez

 

[oftheherd]

Thanks Dez, I will check that out. When the stutter fires, it often doesn't apparently engage something. Often moments after it fires, I can hear a muted click and things work properly. If I don't hear that at slower speeds, the curtains will be separated when it is wound on.

 

[Kevcaster]

Belated congratulations. I am about to begin this journey and your posts have been useful and inspiring.
Kevin