Kiev 4/Jupiter 12, advice needed...

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mpt600

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Can someone help me out on this? I recently bought a Kiev 4 with the standard Jupiter 8, and am very pleased with it. I added a Jupiter 12, but this doesn't seem as "nice", for the following reason. The toothed focussing gear focusses the J12, but when it gets down to 1.7 M it gets really stiff, and the lens' focus dial has to be used instead. This feels like I'm forcing it against its will. With the standard J8 the focus gear works freely from min focus to infinity and back.

I checked the manual, but this just adds confusion as it states that only the J8 is mounted on the internal bayonet which couples with the focus gear. It says all other lenses mount on the external bayonet and the lens' focus wheel is used. Well my J12 definitely mounts on the internal bayonet, but as it's my first one I wondered if they're all like this or if I'm doing something wrong.

I set both camera and lens to infinity before mounting. Also, the spring loaded latch on the side of the J12 doesn't seem to do anything, the lens can be unmounted without touching it. Do I have a bad J12?

Any advice appreciated.

Mike.
 
The latch should jump into a small pitch on the mount.
I have no J12 but a J9 85mm lens,but it's similar idea.
My lens has a latch that is rather old and worn and it does click in the pitch but if i rotate the lens firmly, it can slide out of it without being pushed in. Maybe you have this problem.
Or, the latch might be at a wrong position, due to a "handyman" who put the lens back together in a wrong way. I had this problem with the ssame J9 lens, easy to solve. And easy to check. If there's nothing under it, on the lens mount edge on the camera, when you mount it, then try to locate it swhere else and see if you can solve it this way.
 
You're not supposed to focus the J12 (or lenses other than the 50mm) with the wheel.
Use the lens barrel as you would with other cameras.

Peter
 
Pherdinand, thanks. The latch sits just below 3 O'Clock as you look at the camera, but doesn't latch on to anything. Maybe this is part of the problem.

Peter, thanks, but why not use the focus wheel? It moves when the barrel is moved, and either way feels stiff below 1.7M.

Can't help thinking this lens may have been "repaired" in the past...
 
From the Kiev 4/4a manual:
Non-standard lenses are focused by turning their respective focusing barrels, NOT the focus wheel (9) (fig. 3)

Peter
 
mpt600 said:
Do I have a bad J12?
Click to expand...
Can the lens be turned enough when mounting for it to lock into place?
I've had some lens/camera combinations where the lens could not be turned far enough to lock into place.
Light filing of the mount where the clasp on the lens is supposed to snap into place worked. I used emery cloth.

Peter
 
Also check the central shaft, the RF coupling. It is spring loaded and should move up and down with a minimum or pressure. I had a J-12 were the collar "bound-up" and prevented the lens from turning once mounted. As the focus turns, the RF coupling gets pushed against the spring. If it gets stuck, the focus gets tight. I flood-cleaned it, then could focus the lens with the camera's focus wheel.
 
Hi Mike --
I was just asking for advice the other day about problems I'd had mounting a J12 on my Kiev 2 and got some very helpful advice in this thread. I'd suspected a systematic incompatibility between some late-manufacture lenses' mounts and early Kievs, but people assured me that there were many more possible sources of trouble: the rear element striking the camera inside, the outer bayonet getting stuck because stuff got stuck in it, any number of things. I didn't have the close-focusing problem -- I just had a lens I couldn't get off my camera! -- but since then I dug out the lens that had given me trouble, a J12 from 1980, and saw that the rear element protrudes farther backward than on my example from 1955.

Does your lens have a metal ring surrounding the protruding rear element? My 1980 lens does, and my 1955 model doesn't. I ask because the introduction of that ring seems to coincide with the lengthening of the rear element. It would seem to me that the rear element could be running into part of the camera innards when close-focused.

Final caveat: take my comments with a grain of salt, pay attention to what Brian has to say. I think he's done a lot more Kiev surgery than I.

-- Michael
 
Mike

The focus wheel should only be used if a 35mm (or less) is free to turn, for the moment you should not use the wheel at the tight spot, it will stress the gears, until ping...

The first thing to do is to remove all grease from heliciod, you can see enough if the threads from rear of lens, little zippo and oodles of cotton buds, just wet the cotton buds. After the threads are clean apply three drips of PTFE liquid lube diametrically opposed and work the lens from infinite to near focus a few times, to mix the remining wax with the PTFE liquid. The PTFE is available from Tandy/radio shack/Gun shops in UK.

This is unlikely to fix things but the lens should focus without effort off the camera, and any tight spots on the camera will be more easily detectable.

Brian is correct the focus follower is spring loaded and should float freely, I dont think when Brian says flood, you can squirt the zippo can like water pistol. If you are practical with a watchmakers screw driver the ring will remove, the screws retaining are visible but you need to replace with the correct orientation, a 180 rotation wont work, it will take a while getting the screws back.

Alas this probably wont help your problem either, Brian was lucky, the normal problem seems to be that about 5% of lenses wont focus freely on 5% of bodies. And your case is marginal some people cannot force the focus, using a gorrilla grip on the lens and body...

If you really need to use the range you have a tight spot with the focus wheel then there are two remaining possibilities only done the 2nd myself.

- The focus follower only needs to touch at a knife edge and the earlier lenses were milled so that the leading edge was missing, on the two smaller segments, they milled tapers, to allow (pilot) the focus follower for easier entry into the inner bayonet lugs, you dont have this problem.

- The final problem seems to be the follower and the camera or the follower and the lens bind at some points in the focus range. The lens is normally slack on the bayonet i.e. is located axially but can move at right angles to axis a small amount, some lenses are too tight or dont have enough freedom to allow the focus follower to move freely. or have too much offset at right angles to the axis. The fix is to attempt to realign the lens body in the lens mount! The lens mount embillisher can be removed (chrome screws), and the set screws (or grub screws) then revealed slackened and the lens mounted on the body and focused to see if this helps. if it does tighten the grubs up really gently, remove the camera and put the embillisher back, done.

If this does not help then one might open out the holes in the lens mount the grubs seat in and try again.
Note I've only had to dress the tops of the holes.

There is a point that one buys another J12 but it may be worse, the problem can occur with any Kiev or Contax II/III, and I imagine Nikons are not immune (or cv if the J12 will clear the shutter).

One of my j12 only just clears the Kievs shutter shroud at 8, by <0.5mm way too small.

Noel
 
Just to second: Flood Cleaning is a "generic term" and in this case was a few drops of Ronsonol.

Now, the secondary shutter mechanism of my Prominent: that was Flood Cleaning of Biblical Proportions. But it worked.
 
The first couple of times I mounted the J12 I had focus issues, stiff would not go to infi or close focus. I noticed if the camera is set to infi and the lens when mounting it works and the lens and wheel offer no resistance.

384172097_4b2a49b2a5_m.jpg
 
Thanks for all the help. The lens focus barrel moves freely off the camera, so there is definitely something binding when it goes on. I always attach it set to infinity (same as the camera) but somethings not quite right. The rear element clears the shutter, but only just! To mount, I align the red dot on the lens, which lines up with the focus mark, with the red dot on the camera at about 2 O'Clock and twist the lens anti clockwise. I don't understand how the camera could be at fault if the Jupiter 8 works ok. But anyway, I think I can use the lens as I can't see me needing to focus that close, and although the latch doesn't "latch", the lens is tight enough to focus using the lens barrel without it coming off.

There's a camera fair coming my way in March, with a lot of Russian stuff there. If all else fails I may be able to swap this for one that's more compatible.

So thanks again. If there's anything wrong with the way I'm mounting this lens, let me know, but I can't see anything wrong with it.
 
Mike

In order of your sentences.

One of my j12s only just misses the shutter surround. This seems to be normal, the other J12 and the other cameras are better about 1mm...

The J8 is located by the inner bayonet, and does not touch the outer.
The J12 is located by the outer bayonet, but needs to turn just touching the inner, People post about once every two weeks, with the same problem. I.e.
if you get another J12 it may be worse, I've only been able to get some of mine as good as yours!

The latch should latch, is the lens not turning far enough, or is the latch spring broken or what. The rear element of the J12 is very exposed if the J12 is dropped, you write to the Papal See if the j12 survives a drop.

Please say where is this camera fair?

Noel
 
Noel, the camera fair is Beaconsfield, 18th March. I'll get the details if you need them, they're all in AP.

Seems I may have been spoilt by modern Jap gear, I thought any Kiev mount lens would work fine with any Kiev. From what you say I may actually have a good one!

I'll use it, see how it goes. My biggest worry is damaging the camera. I'll leave the focus wheel alone and use the lens barrel. The spring on the latch is good, it's just that it doesn't postively click, so the lens can be removed without releasing the latch.

At the end of the day, I'd rather have it turning freely, but there you go...and I agree about the rear element of the J12, I've never seen so much bare naked glass in my life 😛
 
Mike

Thanks, I'll have to read my AP, Beacons is pretty near, couple of M25 junctions.

I was dissapointed when two of my J12 did not work on three bodies, and startled by the proximaty.

The latch should latch +vely, does the lens get to the latch position?

Noel
 
The leading edge of the latch doesn't quite make it to 3 O'Clock. It sits flush, but twisting the lens causes the latch to raise on it's own and the lens can be removed. Maybe if it could turn a little more it's locate more positively?
 
flashover said:
I like it. When I use a 50 the VC meter fits on the 4am without any mods also.

386086734_2d1750d3ee_m.jpg
Click to expand...

John, that is a gorgeous Kiev. By the way, you may want to pick up a CV Type C double shoe mount for it while they're still available so you can mount a viewfinder and the VC meter at the same time. I haven't sprung for the meter yet but I got the shoe from CQ the other day with that in mind; the C (largest) size is discontinued, and it's supposed to be the only one that will fit on the Kiev. The $45 felt pricey (I'm spoiled by FSU prices -- that should get me a usable camera!) but it seems very sturdy and well made. -- Michael
 
Mike

The latch should seat just past the edge of the outer bayonet and should be a +ve latch. As it travels along the bayonet the latch should be pushed up and it should cliff face and it travels over the edge.

Noel
 
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