Kiev-4a shutter

[manfromh]

And the camera is back together. That problem, i described in my previous post, disappeared, but the gap problem is back.

 

[varjag]

Did you try tightening the eccentric screw?

The problem reappeared because the casting is now pressing against the curtains again. Try that just by putting it in place, not screwing down, you will see.

 

[Marc-A.]

I discovered that when I change the shutter speed from slower to faster, then there will be a gap left in the shutter. Lets say, I change the speed from 1/50 to 1/125, then the curtains kind of pull themselves open (or the lower one pulls itself away from the other one). Everything seems to be fine with speeds 1/250 and higher.
It doesnt seem to happen when I change the speed to slower. So, can anyone give some tips about fixing it, or is it "off for CLA" day?

Matis

Matis,
It happened the same on a Kiev 4am I had for a very short time (because of the problem). Normally, you can set the shutter before or after winding; it has no effect on the mecanism (that's a big difference between Leica screwmount cameras and their copies and Contax).
Now, if I'm right, when you set the shutter after winding, the problem happens; the curtain comes down a bit. As far as I can remember it happens only when you change speeds from slow one to a fast one.
I think it's a minor issue, probably a lubrification problem; another possibility is that the curtain doesn't hook correctly when you change the shutter speed. In any cases, it's better to send the camera for a CLA; Oleg seems to be the guy!
Best,
Marc

 

[manfromh]

Did you try tightening the eccentric screw?

The problem reappeared because the casting is now pressing against the curtains again. Try that just by putting it in place, not screwing down, you will see.

yeah, sounds logical. The eccentric screw didnt move at all. I gess it had gotten stuck, or it was screwed in very tightly. But i noticed that if the hook was a little closer to the curtains, then it would get in the way of the lower curtain when winding. It did few times.

 

[Marc-A.]

Oh sorry, I hadn't read the whole thread, and other members stated the same problem: the hook seems to be the cause.
😱 Marc

 

[manfromh]

Matis,
It happened the same on a Kiev 4am I had for a very short time (because of the problem). Normally, you can set the shutter before or after winding; it has no effect on the mecanism (that's a big difference between Leica screwmount cameras and their copies and Contax).
Now, if I'm right, when you set the shutter after winding, the problem happens; the curtain comes down a bit. As far as I can remember it happens only when you change speeds from slow one to a fast one.
I think it's a minor issue, probably a lubrification problem; another possibility is that the curtain doesn't hook correctly when you change the shutter speed. In any cases, it's better to send the camera for a CLA; Oleg seems to be the guy!
Best,
Marc

Oleg is a bit too expensive for me. Luckily there are people, who can do it, near me too. Basically i can use the camera fine, but i just lose one frame everytime i change the speed to faster. Also, did I understand correctly that the problem shouldn't happen if i change the speed before winding?

Another thing i was thinking. If the hook "misses" the curtain when changing speeds to faster, shouldnt the same happen when i just wind on?

 

[varjag]

Another thing i was thinking. If the hook "misses" the curtain when changing speeds to faster, shouldnt the same happen when i just wind on?

It doesn't happen because when you wind the upper curtain is not engaged in its upper position yet. You're "losing" the second curtain because tension of the shutter bands changes when you alter speeds, making curtains flex enough to disengage the pins/holes at curtain rims, and even the safety hook. The root cause of it can be shutter bands of incorrect length as already mentioned.. can you set your shutter to "B" normally?

If the screw is tight already try bending down the hook ever so slightly.

 

[Marc-A.]

Also, did I understand correctly that the problem shouldn't happen if i change the speed before winding?

Yes you understood my suggestion correctly; but try it, open your camera and try. You'll the right thing to do.

Another thing i was thinking. If the hook "misses" the curtain when changing speeds to faster, shouldnt the same happen when i just wind on?

Not neccesarily. But I can't explain why. But Eugene can! Thanks Eugene!!
Good luck with your Kiev Matis. Hope you can fix it soon.

 

[manfromh]

It doesn't happen because when you wind the upper curtain is not engaged in its upper position yet. You're "losing" the second curtain because tension of the shutter bands changes when you alter speeds, making curtains flex enough to disengage the pins/holes at curtain rims, and even the safety hook. The root cause of it can be shutter bands of incorrect length as already mentioned.. can you set your shutter to "B" normally?

If the screw is tight already try bending down the hook ever so slightly.

Changing the speed to B is quite hard. I did try the bending, but it got in the way of the lower curtain. Ill try it again sometime

 

[varjag]

I only know that because the Contax I got initially had very similar problem: impossible to set on B (tapes cut too short), shutter gap when changing from slow to fast speeds or even tapping the camera moderately hard; it was fine with film plane casting off but problem reappeared with casting installed back. I adjusted the screw but will eventually replace the shutter bands to get B working.

Sometimes I wish I didn't have to know all that 🙂

 

[manfromh]

Yes you understood my suggestion correctly; but try it, open your camera and try. You'll the right thing to do.


Not neccesarily. But I can't explain why. But Eugene can! Thanks Eugene!!
Good luck with your Kiev Matis. Hope you can fix it soon.

I tried setting the speed before winding. And it seems to work fine. Its even easier to change it. And the shutter didn't seem to go insane, and I hope it wont. So, the gap problem isnt that big of a problem anymore. Thanks! Now I only need to replace the light seals. The red rubber thingy that was in there is in good shape, so its going back. But maybe something thinner would be better. I wonder if I need glue though.

I only know that because the Contax I got initially had very similar problem: impossible to set on B (tapes cut too short), shutter gap when changing from slow to fast speeds or even tapping the camera moderately hard; it was fine with film plane casting off but problem reappeared with casting installed back. I adjusted the screw but will eventually replace the shutter bands to get B working.

Sometimes I wish I didn't have to know all that

Ive never used the B setting in any of my cameras, so I dont realy need it. Im probably not even going slower than 1/10. And knowledge is good

Does anyone else get blisters from using knob-wind cameras?

 

[Marc-A.]

I'm glad it works this way 🙂
And one day, if you have enough money for a CLA, just do it, your Kiev deserves it 😉
Have fun!
Marc

 

[manfromh]

And now about the light seal on the back. Whats the correct way to replace it? Do I just glue it and push it in there? Its a rubber band that was there before too. And is there a specific type of glue for it? Permanent glue seems like a bad idea

 

[Xmas]

Original seals on late cameras was black cord (commonly termed Yack string after the Ru animal), this was glued in place with 'yellow' animal glue whifh is a pain to remove, with a dentist pick, piecs by piece, takes ages.

Black thick sheeps wool is a resonable substitute. 'Tack it' (with dots of glue 1/2 inch apart) with a child safe edible glue, (for ease of removal), if it drops out in the field push it back.

Early cameras (and Contax) relied on mechanical fit, but had internal seals (the Kievs used the black string but above the viewfinder and sprocket area, internally.

Later cameras also have a strange spring light seal that fits by magic above the sprocket shaft. You will need magic to get it back if it is bent, some are missing...

Russ Pbeck of the survival site uses lots of paper, to seal above the shutter and rangefinder prism, I prefer lots of black plastic, Russ may be correct.
Noel
(edit if you still have hook problems, to move the hook nearer or further from the shutter (hook) one bends it, - carefully. the offset screw moves the hook along the shutter which changes how the release occurs, rather than how the mating capture works.

 

[Stu W]

Eugene is right about the shutter tape length. If it is cut too short the camera will not wind to bulb. When the shutter curtains are wound on, they pass 2 ramps that disengage the pins on either side of them causing them to disconnect from each other. At that point the hook secures the lower curtain, and the upper curtain is free to keep on winding, which changes the gap in the curtains, which changes the shutter speeds. The hook is essential as without it the lower curtain will open on its own. If the curtain is not secured in the proper position by the hook your shutter speeds will be inaccurate and you will have a lignt leak. There are paper seals around the prism, there is a seal above the sprocket shaft, and there are cord seals between the top housing and the shutter assembly. The seal at the back door is probably the least concern, and is very easy to replace. Luckily the top housing comes off very easily and the paper and cord seals can be checked. Stu

 

[Stu W]

Sorry, I just read Xmas's post, and it looks like I said about the same thing. Anyway, listen to him. Another thing. Check the 2 little brass tabs on the lower curtain that the hook engages. Make sure they're not deformed. Stu

 

[manfromh]

Thanks everybody! But im probably gonna leave it, until I can afford a CLA. Right now the light leaks seem to be the smallest problems.

 

[manfromh]

Okay, I noticed that the sprocket holes on the film doesnt engage with the sprocket tooth on the camera. It works fine on the first frames of the roll, but later the film is just going over the teeth. I pressed gently on the film with my finger to force it into the right place, which helped. But its not the cure. The plastic roller thingy on the back of the camera should be pressing against the film like that, but it does it weakly. I think a possible cure might be raising the roller a little. But its easier to say, than to do.

 

[Xmas]

manfromh

If you dont have the back on when you wind film on - the camera may misbehave but it is not its fault, it needs the roller on the back.

You need a pencil (graphite) or marker pen and a scrap film. Your load the film as normal with the back on and wind and shoot with the lens off at the B setting, holding the shutter open with the T lock or a release or a steady finger, You mark each frame leading and training edge through the lens opening on the film emulsion side. Remove film, and look at marks. You need to stagger the marks to distinguisk left and right side afterwards.

Normally the Kiev (or Contax) wont control spacing too well, (from beginning to end of the reel,) it only needs to avoid overlapping frames too much, butting them together I'd not worry about!

If you have torn sprocket holes or even obvious damage to holes then you need to strip the friction clutch, this is the accessed via the screw inside the forks of the take up side (i.e. coaxial with the forks). The forks should turn relatively easily as although the take up spool drags the film out of the feed side cassette the metering is controlled by the sprocket drive shaft teeth, and the clutch has to slip or destroy the film sproket holes, when the shaft is locked but the drive continues to turn.

If you losen off the screw at the centre of the forks a small collection of washers and a powerful spring will drop out and you need to note the order of the parts. If you then clean everything and put it back and it does not work dry. then you have a problem:

remove a washer to reduce friction
add a washer to increase friction
adjust the spring tension

The last is difficult as the spring is like T34 (tank) main suspension spring and needs a vice to reduce its service length.

I try a drip of PTFE liquid lube before bothering to losen the screw, but thst is a bodge...

Good luck, it is difficult to adjust.

Noel

 

[Xmas]

An aside the finger at the bottom of the shutter, you mentioned, is for the flash synchronisation switch, it is the switch.

When the first blind hits the floor of the chassis it pushed the switch down and the electrical circuit is made and is held made until you recock the shutter!

If the shutter arm (wing) that puskes the switch down is bent it may get underneath the switch arm, this would stop the flash synch working and may cause a jam on recocking the shutter.

I think I had this syndrome. I very carefully bent the arm back, to shape but you need a template (e.g. another working camera) to see the correct form. The arm is also used at the top of the chassis so it needs to be just correct, you need to borrow another camera and a dentist mirror and lock the 2nd camera shutter open (in T), and look at the arm shape.

The same arm unlatches the top and bottom blind latches, when the shutter is cocked. My memory is fading on this, one of the experts will help if you need and post another query.

The brass shutter part is like butterflys wing in cross section and easy to destroy.

Noel