manfromh
I'm not there
I have tried marking the framelines few times. But its stops winding the film after a while. Only way to get it to advance further, is to open the back and guide the film a bit. And also, when it stops winding, then it seems like the sprocket teeth are moving, but the take-up spool stays still. I tried the clutch thing too, but it wasnt much help. There were some torn sprocket holes on the last film i tried, but there were only a few. I havent seen them on the current film im testing it with. Luckily I have more old films for testing.
Xmas
Veteran
The take up spool is gear driven from the sprocket shaft it can stop because there is not enough friction or because there is a gear fault.
If you have the top off you need to check
- that the gears and bushes are not too badly worn
- that the gear teeth are not offset and only overlap by 40% or less
The take up spool gear teeth can ride too high relative to the gear that drives it, the take up spool is not located (properly) in the axial sense, from new or after lots of wear.
If the gears slip out of alignment there will be grinding noises and probable physical damage. I dont think you have this problem.
If the take up spool (clutch friction) does not keep the film tightly wound (enough) then the film will get folded up and cause problems, you seem to have this problem.
The friction on the clutch needs to be high and low enough to tension the film both:
- when the first frame has to be wound on and the take up spool diameter is small and not much slippage will occur, the take up spool is only just turning fast enough to keep up with the sprocket shaft to avoid slack, if it slips the film will fold up.
- when the 35th frame has already been wound on and the diameter of the tightly wound 34th to 1st frame is large, and more slippage is needed, to avoid film tearing, as the sprocket shaft turns at the same rate as before but the take up has to turn a lot slower, by slipping at the clutch, or damage the film.
My cameras tend to damage sprocket holes after 30 frames or as the friction is set too high... if I back off the film will crumple rather than wind on, difficult to manage an in between friction. Some of the Ru people say retension the spring, cannot do that easily
Yours seems to be too low in friction, it is a difficult compromise, to judge and achieve.
When you are rewinding only the sprocket drive is declutched (free) you need to rewind the film against the tension in the friction clutch, it is possible to pull film from the cassette spool if you load your own, mine Kievs can do that.
Noel
If you have the top off you need to check
- that the gears and bushes are not too badly worn
- that the gear teeth are not offset and only overlap by 40% or less
The take up spool gear teeth can ride too high relative to the gear that drives it, the take up spool is not located (properly) in the axial sense, from new or after lots of wear.
If the gears slip out of alignment there will be grinding noises and probable physical damage. I dont think you have this problem.
If the take up spool (clutch friction) does not keep the film tightly wound (enough) then the film will get folded up and cause problems, you seem to have this problem.
The friction on the clutch needs to be high and low enough to tension the film both:
- when the first frame has to be wound on and the take up spool diameter is small and not much slippage will occur, the take up spool is only just turning fast enough to keep up with the sprocket shaft to avoid slack, if it slips the film will fold up.
- when the 35th frame has already been wound on and the diameter of the tightly wound 34th to 1st frame is large, and more slippage is needed, to avoid film tearing, as the sprocket shaft turns at the same rate as before but the take up has to turn a lot slower, by slipping at the clutch, or damage the film.
My cameras tend to damage sprocket holes after 30 frames or as the friction is set too high... if I back off the film will crumple rather than wind on, difficult to manage an in between friction. Some of the Ru people say retension the spring, cannot do that easily
Yours seems to be too low in friction, it is a difficult compromise, to judge and achieve.
When you are rewinding only the sprocket drive is declutched (free) you need to rewind the film against the tension in the friction clutch, it is possible to pull film from the cassette spool if you load your own, mine Kievs can do that.
Noel
manfromh
I'm not there
I frictioned the clutch as much as I can, but it didnt help. Its still slipping after few frames. Is it normal, that the clutch is wobbling a bit? And I just remembered that, when I first opened the camera up, to try to fix that shutter problem, I found a washer lying next to the camera. I dont know from where it fell out, so I didnt put it back in. Are there any washers that drop out easily when taking off the top casting or the film casting?
Last edited:
Spyderman
Well-known
Xmas
Veteran
The take up forks and their shaft should be reasonably tight both axially and radially.
The bearing (bush) can wear to give radial movement, it would need real engineering to address this.
The axial movement is large even without wear and if the take up gear wheel looks at risk of misalignment with the driving wheel teeth I insert a plastic washer between the top of fork piece part and the camera chassis, to pull the gear wheel down so it has no axial play and has near to 100% engagement between the gears. This helps the axial play a little.
I use the top of a Kodak cassette plastic can and a leather punch and knife to make up a low friction washer, of exact thickness.
This fix is to protect the gears it does not help with the friction...
If you wind on the camera (to lock the gears) and turn the forks by hand anti clockwise the forks should be hard on the skin of your fingers. You should be able turn and turn the forks without any slippage other than from the clutch,. You should be able to get blisters on your fingers from the forks.
This occurs as your rewind the film and should not cause any damage.
Noel
The bearing (bush) can wear to give radial movement, it would need real engineering to address this.
The axial movement is large even without wear and if the take up gear wheel looks at risk of misalignment with the driving wheel teeth I insert a plastic washer between the top of fork piece part and the camera chassis, to pull the gear wheel down so it has no axial play and has near to 100% engagement between the gears. This helps the axial play a little.
I use the top of a Kodak cassette plastic can and a leather punch and knife to make up a low friction washer, of exact thickness.
This fix is to protect the gears it does not help with the friction...
If you wind on the camera (to lock the gears) and turn the forks by hand anti clockwise the forks should be hard on the skin of your fingers. You should be able turn and turn the forks without any slippage other than from the clutch,. You should be able to get blisters on your fingers from the forks.
This occurs as your rewind the film and should not cause any damage.
Noel
manfromh
I'm not there
Thanks for help! But im out of inspiration for now.
rolleistef
Well-known
Did you finally find out how to fix this shutter gap issue?
After I lubrificated my IIIa shutter it started having the same problem..!
After I lubrificated my IIIa shutter it started having the same problem..!
Xmas
Veteran
Stephane
The contax and leitz shutters are really different, and have different fault mechanisms, you need to post your symptoms in the LTM forum and have a Leitz/fed/Zorky person try and help, sorry
Noel.
The contax and leitz shutters are really different, and have different fault mechanisms, you need to post your symptoms in the LTM forum and have a Leitz/fed/Zorky person try and help, sorry
Noel.
rolleistef
Well-known
Sorry Noel, it was a bit ambiguous.
I was (unfortunately
i want a real leica iiif!! ) not talking about a Leica IIIa but about a Kiev IIIa. Or 3a. or a 2a with a meter.... I'll be writing 3a next time!
has anybody found a soltution for this gap trouble?
I was (unfortunately
i want a real leica iiif!! ) not talking about a Leica IIIa but about a Kiev IIIa. Or 3a. or a 2a with a meter.... I'll be writing 3a next time!has anybody found a soltution for this gap trouble?
Xmas
Veteran
Stephane
Sorry I'm dyslexic not your fault.
If your shutter gets a gap at top of frame as detailed earlier in this post then:
- it may be a fault in the hook which is concealed under the top part of the film aperature, and can just be seen under the frame or
- in the two capture devices on the top slat of the first blind, - ok Stephan they are little hooks too
You need to look at the 2nd blind as the shutter is cocked and try and describe why the hook does not ride over the first and second capture devices, and hang on to the lower one when you release the winder knob.
Or what you have to do to make the gap occur, it is like visiting the medical doctor or vet you need to describe enough symptoms.
There are adjustments which you can do yourself, but you will probably need a deep tray, and watchmakers screw driver set, pliers etc.
Please post symptoms.
Noel
Sorry I'm dyslexic not your fault.
If your shutter gets a gap at top of frame as detailed earlier in this post then:
- it may be a fault in the hook which is concealed under the top part of the film aperature, and can just be seen under the frame or
- in the two capture devices on the top slat of the first blind, - ok Stephan they are little hooks too
You need to look at the 2nd blind as the shutter is cocked and try and describe why the hook does not ride over the first and second capture devices, and hang on to the lower one when you release the winder knob.
Or what you have to do to make the gap occur, it is like visiting the medical doctor or vet you need to describe enough symptoms.
There are adjustments which you can do yourself, but you will probably need a deep tray, and watchmakers screw driver set, pliers etc.
Please post symptoms.
Noel
Last edited:
rolleistef
Well-known
ok let's try this,
ty vmuch
cheers
stéphane
ty vmuch
cheers
stéphane
manfromh
I'm not there
so, my inspiration came back, and I made a washer out of a plastic card (same thickness as a credit card I think) today. The film advances without much problems now. After a test of marking the frames on B, I see that frame spacing is mostly fine. A bit on the big side on the beginning, nice in the middle and 1 or 2 overlaps in the very end. Maybe I'll add one thin washer. It seems that I can use my Kiev after all
And earlier in this thread I said that its very hard to set the camera on B. Well, its easier now. I guess it just needed some excercise.
And earlier in this thread I said that its very hard to set the camera on B. Well, its easier now. I guess it just needed some excercise.
Last edited:
wolves3012
Veteran
First let me say I'm not very experienced with the Kievs, but I had this gap problem on a Kiev 4 which I solved. If this is all wrong, someone who knows better can shout at me but it worked on my camera.
Take the back off and cock the shutter at a slow speed. Now change the speed to a faster one - does the lower curtain start to open? If it does (mine did), GENTLY close it by hand - use a fingernail or something but don't press the curtain in at all. After that my camera worked fine when changing speeds, no gaps. I read about this somewhere on the net but I can't recall where!
Take the back off and cock the shutter at a slow speed. Now change the speed to a faster one - does the lower curtain start to open? If it does (mine did), GENTLY close it by hand - use a fingernail or something but don't press the curtain in at all. After that my camera worked fine when changing speeds, no gaps. I read about this somewhere on the net but I can't recall where!
rolleistef
Well-known
the problem is solved... the shutter release arm spring wasn't strong enoug, and the hook out of alignement; now there's another problem : the shutter caps from the 1250th to the 25th, and works at around 1/50 below... let's fix it!
Xmas
Veteran
Stephane
Have you rebuilt the shutter? The contax design does not normally cap, they are not like Leicias - which employ a delay on the second blind release. In a contax the two blinds should be locked together after the shutter is cocked and the speed altered (this sets the correct separation). When the shutter is fired the blinds are still locked together and dont vary in separation.
At 1/50 and slower a clock work delay is employed for the 2nd blind.
It is difficult to reset the shutter again after a rebuild but not impossible, it is the positioning of the gears tooth by tooth. The separation is visible with the shutter module out of the camera it should be about 3mm at 1250/1000 second after wind on or speed selection.
Noel
P.S. what is an F75?
Have you rebuilt the shutter? The contax design does not normally cap, they are not like Leicias - which employ a delay on the second blind release. In a contax the two blinds should be locked together after the shutter is cocked and the speed altered (this sets the correct separation). When the shutter is fired the blinds are still locked together and dont vary in separation.
At 1/50 and slower a clock work delay is employed for the 2nd blind.
It is difficult to reset the shutter again after a rebuild but not impossible, it is the positioning of the gears tooth by tooth. The separation is visible with the shutter module out of the camera it should be about 3mm at 1250/1000 second after wind on or speed selection.
Noel
P.S. what is an F75?
rolleistef
Well-known
Hello Noel,
No I didn't rebuild the shutter. I guess it'll be fixed easily but how? we'll see during the next holidays...
The 2 blinds are indeed locked, but they don't when the shutter fires...
Also : a F75 is a plastic Nikon SLR, with 24 zones matrix metering, auto-focus, auto-everything. After using it for about 6 months, it turned out to be sucking 2 cells/3 months, so I bought a new Rolleiflex instead, as well as a Kiev, that work without any battery, and on which you play the role of the control-computer
The only thing which is made out of metal on a nikon f75 is (except the screws) the Nikon f-bayonet...
No I didn't rebuild the shutter. I guess it'll be fixed easily but how? we'll see during the next holidays...
The 2 blinds are indeed locked, but they don't when the shutter fires...
Also : a F75 is a plastic Nikon SLR, with 24 zones matrix metering, auto-focus, auto-everything. After using it for about 6 months, it turned out to be sucking 2 cells/3 months, so I bought a new Rolleiflex instead, as well as a Kiev, that work without any battery, and on which you play the role of the control-computer
The only thing which is made out of metal on a nikon f75 is (except the screws) the Nikon f-bayonet...
Xmas
Veteran
Stephane
I think what happens is:--
When the shutter is cocked both blinds are locked by latches until the 1st blind to fire (the lower one) reaches the ramps, when the blinds separate, the 1st blind is stopped just past the frame boundary and held by the hook, and blind 'spurs', the 2nd blind is pulled along the ribbon (through the little clutches) until it is at the correct separation from the 1st blind. As selected by the speed dial position, or changes in position.
When the shutter is fired the ensemble of 1st blind, ribbon, and 2nd blind moves as one unit.
If yours does something different you may have a problem, good luck.
Ok a K75 was after my time I've a F2 and FM2n, already too automated for me.
Noel
I think what happens is:--
When the shutter is cocked both blinds are locked by latches until the 1st blind to fire (the lower one) reaches the ramps, when the blinds separate, the 1st blind is stopped just past the frame boundary and held by the hook, and blind 'spurs', the 2nd blind is pulled along the ribbon (through the little clutches) until it is at the correct separation from the 1st blind. As selected by the speed dial position, or changes in position.
When the shutter is fired the ensemble of 1st blind, ribbon, and 2nd blind moves as one unit.
If yours does something different you may have a problem, good luck.
Ok a K75 was after my time I've a F2 and FM2n, already too automated for me.
Noel
rolleistef
Well-known
Hi,
thanks a lot for your help.
It now works normally (except that I have to tune the hook so that the second curtain doesn't open when changing to a slower speed).
The camera top being remvoved I also adjusted the RF. Something very strange : when the RF is OK at 0.9m, it's off @ 1m, but when it's adjusted @ 1m, it's off at .9m... but it doens't seem to be fixable!
thanks a lot for your help.
It now works normally (except that I have to tune the hook so that the second curtain doesn't open when changing to a slower speed).
The camera top being remvoved I also adjusted the RF. Something very strange : when the RF is OK at 0.9m, it's off @ 1m, but when it's adjusted @ 1m, it's off at .9m... but it doens't seem to be fixable!
doctorpepe
Newbie
Has anyone had issues where their Contax IIa works consistenly where 1/25 is 1s, but all other shutter speeds are within 10%? This is after a CLA. I suspect that the cam that guides the speeds at 1/25 and 1/50 was improperly adjusted. Please advise.
The IIa is a completely different shutter. You might have more luck starting a new thread.