Kisses and insults...

Brian Legge said:
I'm a fan of de-escalation. Yes, you were within your right, but jumping straight to a legal defense closes doors.

What was your motive in taking the shot? Is that something you could have shared instead? If the primary point of interest in your shot was the titillation, well, yes, you put yourself in a position that might have been hard to defend. IF your reason was 'shooting people connecting' or 'documenting how people relate' or 'its socially important to show this' or even 'I thought it was a beautiful moment' you can diffuse the situation in a way that might put others around you at ease and help.

Jumping to 'I have a right, you can't stop me' may be accurate but in my opinion obscuring your motive or reason for taking the shot urges others to shut down around you. Maybe I'm looking at this from an unrealistic karma perspective but you and I probably would have taken different approaches at the moment. That said, I probably wouldn't have take the shots you did because I wouldn't have had the balls to put myself in your position either though, so I probably shouldn't comment. :)

Closest situation recently was a topless girl at Seattle Pride who was advocating topless rights for women. She kept her arms crossed across her chest and seemed a little uncomfortable, particularly with cameras around. After hanging out in the area, I asked if I could take a shot of the message on her back. Everyone understood my intent and ignored me - I waited until they went back to talking to get the candid shot of her back I wanted. It wasn't an incredible shot by any stretch but I got what I wanted without anyone feeling violated/etc. I also kept open the opportunity to talk with her afterwards and potentially get additional opportunities and so forth. Getting aggressive and arguing my right to take the shot feels like it would have been a very different situation and would have closed doors.
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Nice irony :)
 
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Well, in fact, the girl criticizing me for shooting that couple, at one point said I wasn't allowed to photograph there, and that's why I did correct her. And seriously: asking those people to call the police and have them my rights explained, is what has always helped me the best and fastest way to stop the discussion... That's how I explain my intentions are public and legal. The girl insulted me, but she didn't say anything else after the insult, and I remained shooting around, and nothing else happened... All of us giving value to our rights as photographers should talk in public about those rights instead of keeping quiet about them. If when we're asked by anyone to go away, we're soft and just go away, soon we'll see laws allowing us to shoot inside home only.

Cheers,

Juan
 
Double Negative said:
I would have probably taken a picture of the raving lunatic as well. You know, just for the sake of thoroughly documenting the action. :)
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Honestly I thought of it as soon as I told her bye... In fact with the 15 I could have done it with or without letting her know about it... But in that minute of discussion her attitude really surprised me, and I needed to tell her I could keep making photographs... And I agree with Joe: at least here in Barcelona, the beach is the place where I see this things happen most of the times... Shots are easily taken from a sexual point of view by lots of people these days... Maybe the sun on our skins has a magic power in our libidos... :)

Cheers,

Juan
 
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Great title for a thread by the way Juan! :D

I think part of the issue here is the slightly voyeristic aspect of a man watching two women making out .... and don't tell me it doesn't exist as a fantasy in many male minds!

Trash porn has been making billions out of it for as long as I can remember and millions of men all around the world get their rocks off watching it!

I know this wasn't Juan's intentions but the interloper who abused him obviously though that was his angle!
 
Thanks, Keith... I've had them both... :)

When the photographed girls heard I had photographed them, and said nothing to me, the other girl felt worse than before (I guess...) She said nothing after the bad words she said to me, but instead of "defending" her nature (my assumption) she looked at me with hate, as if I had made public a weakness of hers on purpose... I guess for girls it's even harder than for men... I'm sorry about that: I didn't want to produce anything like that... I just felt the other two girls were beautifully strong.

Cheers,

Juan
 
Juan, I wish I would have been there, taking photos of you with your 6 cameras hanging off your shoulders taking first a photo of the girls and then arguing with the other one :) ..... Feels a bit Bunuel. :)
 
Of course, you had a right to take the photos. The girls had a right to get upset. When people get upset about being photographed, frankly, it's naive to expect them to cool down and change their minds because the guy with the camera preaches to them about what's legal and what isn't. Our conception of our privacy has little to do with the law.

Consider: These women were in a public space. If someone stood two feet away from one of them with a camera pointed at her chest, would it be reasonable to expect her to forego all claims to privacy?
 
Juan Valdenebro said:
Today I was walking by the border of the sea, and next to me I saw a couple of girls laying by the sand kissing, and as I had my 15 on and ready, I made a couple of quick snaps... It all took a couple of seconds... They were in their business and had their eyes closed, and didn't see me or hear me... It was a public beach (not even a nude one) and they had their bikinis on... They were surrounded closely by lots of people, and it was a really crowded beach. When I started walking again, a few meters away one eastern Europe girl laying with other two girls, started shouting at me (trying to make the first 2 girls know I had photographed them, and she got it): “Hey you fool, don't you think those girls deserve some privacy?” and I told her: “No. This is a public place, and as you see around, lots of people have cameras and make photographs... If you want a more detailed explanation on why I can make photographs of anyone I want here, ask those police officers there, and they'll explain it to you kindly while I remain making my photographs, and about those girls, if they wanted privacy they'd be in a private place, but they came to a public place because they might enjoy publicity as much as privacy... And your comment is sexist, because you think I can make a photograph of a man and a woman kissing, but not one of two women kissing... Think a bit of that, bye...” She said: “You f**kin' as**ole!”


Am I wrong?
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I cant say if you were right or wrong, as we only just hear one side of th story - yours.
What I do wonder about, however, if you would have the same reaction if it was not the girls " from Eastern Europe" (not sure WHY this fact was important to this story), but a couple of big "Russin Mafia" looking guys told you off - would you still be so brave to stay and try to explain your rights or would you ran so fast, you'd be in Norway by now? :confused:
It is interesting to me how some people react in a same situations but when circumstances change.
 
ferider said:
Juan, I wish I would have been there, taking photos of you with your 6 cameras hanging off your shoulders taking first a photo of the girls and then arguing with the other one :) ..... Feels a bit Bunuel. :)
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Hi Roland,

It looks like when I said a few days ago I use two cameras for sun, or two cameras for shadows, or two compacts in my pockets if I can't be seen with cameras, people preferred to avoid considering or testing the more interesting and complex concepts involved, and just retained the number 6 for jokes full of creativeness...:p Ah, the easy ways... (I don't say it because of you: it's become recurrent from several members... But I know it's a joke, no problem... Either for the next ones to come... :))

I don't walk with my cameras being very visible: never... And I keep walking all the time... I had one small RF hanging from my left shoulder, and the second one, with the 15, down in my right hand. Being discreet is necessary for shooting people kissing at your feet... I'm not Bruce Gilden...:D

And Buñuel is a lot more interesting than Ken Rockwell with six cameras shouting in Spain... I didn't shout, of course... And surrealism is quite another thing, related to automatic inner expression and not with absurd... My scene just lasted for a minute, and I wasn't carrying six cameras, and I got that hard to get shot, and also stopped the whole thing quickly... No good for a Buñuel film...

Cheers,

Juan
 
Krosya said:
I cant say if you were right or wrong, as we only just hear one side of th story - yours.
What I do wonder about, however, if you would have the same reaction if it was not the girls " from Eastern Europe" (not sure WHY this fact was important to this story), but a couple of big "Russin Mafia" looking guys told you off - would you still be so brave to stay and try to explain your rights or would you ran so fast, you'd be in Norway by now? :confused:
It is interesting to me how some people react in a same situations but when circumstances change.
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Hi Krosya,

Sorry I didn't explain: she spoke such a bad spanish I almost couldn't understand her, and I think she was a bit drunk too... It all added to the uncomfort of the whole situation... Thanks for the point...

Cheers,

Juan
 
Bob Michaels said:
Juan: sometimes I must get very simple and realize that some things are other people's problems and some things are mine. It sounds to me that this was the vocal woman's problem and not yours.

Dismiss her comments and move on.
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You're right Bob... I just fear in those cases that if I don't ask them to call the police, they could bring the police and even if I know my rights, any donkey with a gun can take my roll away... That's why my first step is having on my side that I offered the person to call the police, in case the police comes... I've had friends who have lost films and even cameras because of the authorities... I showed her I didn't fear her or the police, and moved on... More or less what you say...:eek:

Cheers,

Juan
 
Finally, and with a bit of a change of main subject, I can see that the main reason I worry about all this, is because I suspect that just as with terrorism, us the photographers are facing an age of losing decade after decade a lot of our freedom to capture images of people, and this is one of the things that got me sad... I feel in some years more laws will come in all countries to "prevent" crimes of all imaginable kinds... Maybe I'm too worried about losing my freedom, but I really think photographers in the future won't have as much freedom as we do.

Cheers,

Juan
 
Juan Valdenebro said:
she spoke such a bad spanish I almost couldn't understand her,
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So anybody speaking bad spanish is from Easteurope. :bang: Those bad, bad eastern europeans. Not enought they are the parias of Europe now they even are so insolent bringing you their money without speaking perfect spanish.

Perhaps you are kind enough to explain me on what your two statements (language skills and the implied demigration of eastern eurpeans) rest upon beside ignorance? Let me remind you that: 1. Most of you speak no second language (not a surprise if we recall analphabetism rates above 90 percent just a few decades ago) 2. Not so long Spain was Euorpe's poorhouse and exactly the same dismissive observations were made about your people which ones you allow yourself about eastern europeans.

Always surprising how fast people just crowled out of the **** forget where they came from. (And I'm still not convinced spaniards completly crowled out from there, a great part of them should e.g. learn to use soap and water.)
 
moderator, please delete

moderator, please delete

please can a moderator delete this offensive post - as well as my quote

Eugen Mezei said:
So anybody speaking bad spanish is from Easteurope. :bang: Those bad, bad eastern europeans. Not enought they are the parias of Europe now they even are so insolent bringing you their money without speaking perfect spanish.

Perhaps you are kind enough to explain me on what your two statements (language skills and the implied demigration of eastern eurpeans) rest upon beside ignorance? Let me remind you that: 1. Most of you speak no second language (not a surprise if we recall analphabetism rates above 90 percent just a few decades ago) 2. Not so long Spain was Euorpe's poorhouse and exactly the same dismissive observations were made about your people which ones you allow yourself about eastern europeans.

Always surprising how fast people just crowled out of the **** forget where they came from. (And I'm still not convinced spaniards completly crowled out from there, a great part of them should e.g. learn to use soap and water.)
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Eugen Mezei said:
So anybody speaking bad spanish is from Easteurope. :bang: Those bad, bad eastern europeans. Not enought they are the parias of Europe now they even are so insolent bringing you their money without speaking perfect spanish.

Perhaps you are kind enough to explain me on what your two statements (language skills and the implied demigration of eastern eurpeans) rest upon beside ignorance? Let me remind you that: 1. Most of you speak no second language (not a surprise if we recall analphabetism rates above 90 percent just a few decades ago) 2. Not so long Spain was Euorpe's poorhouse and exactly the same dismissive observations were made about your people which ones you allow yourself about eastern europeans.

Always surprising how fast people just crowled out of the **** forget where they came from. (And I'm still not convinced spaniards completly crowled out from there, a great part of them should e.g. learn to use soap and water.)
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Hey, I can't stop smiling: I have said nothing of what you imagine... Cool down!

I have -many years ago- a good friend from Rumania, her name is Astrid Raitner, and the girl at the beach had exactly the same accent my good friend has on every word: I'd bet the girl was Rumanian... I have heard my friend's relatives accent too...

All's in your mind...

Cheers,

Juan
 
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