Kodak is working on a Chapter 11 bankruptcy (three threads merged)

I would like to see Kodak's film sales broken out by movie film sales vs. consumer film. I'm sure that movie film sales are declining rapidly.

What Kodak needs to do is to promote the use of film in advertising. All the things that are supposed to be disadvantages, can be touted as advantages - the thing that needs to happen is to pivot the "brand" of using film from the family snapshooter archetype to the Outlaw archetype. Using film makes you an outlaw just as riding a Harley does - that kind of branding approach. Look at how Harley Davidson not only survived but thrived, even though their motorcycles were no where near as efficient, fast, powerful, etc... compared to the Japanese bikes. Harley was so successful that the Japanese changed their bikes to look more like Harleys!

The Lomography and urban hipster movements are trying this approach and succeeding, and Kodak (their consumer film division?) needs to take a page or two from their playbooks.
 
dallard said:
I think most people who Lomo use the internet to buy camera gear. Also, if Kodak's film sales increased in 2011 then it says that there is a growing demand. Given that film cameras have a really long life span I'm not sure about film production being that badly hurt by their wearing out. I just got a perfectly good Rolleiflex recently that was made in 1961 and will probably last a while to come. So maybe cameras wearing out will have an impact a few decades from now on film but a lot can happen between now and then. If enough people just keep shooting film then suppliers will respond to the demand.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, I just cannot buy that there is a significant increase in film use. Film users have already been a niche group for years. The internet makes it seems bigger than it is based on forums like this, etc. The fact is that film is no longer sold in most stores like it used to be. Film used to be sold in delis, gas stations, grocery stores, department stores, pharmacies, etc. Now only a small selection exists at some phamacies and not many other places, other than camera stores offer it. Until the mainstream (masses) embraces film again, there will never be a significant increase.
 
Kodak could have put effort into creating a digital insert to go into film camera's. Something that is shaped and contoured like a film canister that has a thin plate protruding out of the side that replicates the film location behind the lens. It would have a sensor in it so when you wind, it is ready for the digital unit to store the shot at the press of the shutter. It would be removable so you can plug it into a PC to download the data. The only reason this hasn't been developed is because of greed. Selling camera's is far more profitable than equipping old camera's with the capability to keep functioning in the digital revolution.

Paul
 
muf said:
The only reason this hasn't been developed is because of greed. Selling camera's is far more profitable than equipping old camera's with the capability to keep functioning in the digital revolution.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure it is easy to do... that is most likely why it hasn't been done.
 
jsrockit said:
I'm not sure it is easy to do... that is most likely why it hasn't been done.
Click to expand...

Well apparently it was done back in the day when camera's were only 1 megapixel. I don't know which company did this but it died as 1 megapixel was rubbish quality. Nowadays, technology has moved on and I'm sure this could be done at a much higher megapixel.

What a shame Kodak didn't go in for this...

Paul
 
jsrockit said:
Unfortunately, I just cannot buy that there is a significant increase in film use. Film users have already been a niche group for years. The internet makes it seems bigger than it is based on forums like this, etc. The fact is that film is no longer sold in most stores like it used to be. Film used to be sold in delis, gas stations, grocery stores, department stores, pharmacies, etc. Now only a small selection exists at some phamacies and not many other places, other than camera stores offer it. Until the mainstream (masses) embraces film again, there will never be a significant increase.
Click to expand...


I agree totally with your post.

If film had a real future with potential growth cameras like the Nikon F6 would still be on dealer's shelves. This was the last serious film camera made and it struggles to survive in a digital age. The Lomo thing has little relevance to film's future IMO ... it's more more about fashion and image! As for Cosina's rangefinders ... I'm sure one large department store will sell more digital point and shoots in a year than their entire output of film based cameras!
 
muf said:
Kodak could have put effort into creating a digital insert to go into film camera's. Something that is shaped and contoured like a film canister that has a thin plate protruding out of the side that replicates the film location behind the lens. It would have a sensor in it so when you wind, it is ready for the digital unit to store the shot at the press of the shutter. It would be removable so you can plug it into a PC to download the data. The only reason this hasn't been developed is because of greed. Selling camera's is far more profitable than equipping old camera's with the capability to keep functioning in the digital revolution.

Paul
Click to expand...

Has been tried, unfortunately it's not that easy. I forget the details but it has come up on RFF on occasion. I believe Brian Sweeney, who no longer posts here, explained a lot of the technical challenges. You may be able to find an old thread or two.

That said, I fully agree that if anybody could have pulled it off, it's Kodak. I also agree it wasn't in their interest...
 
jsrockit said:
I'm not sure it is easy to do... that is most likely why it hasn't been done.
Click to expand...

You're right. There's been a lot of vapourware but never anything that anyone independent of the manufacturers could get their hands on. I've met several people who said they were going to do it, and several who actually tried. Neither group succeeded. This is basically a folk-myth for wishful thinkers, along with the million-year light-bulb and the car that runs on water, where 'the patents' were bought up by a non-existent cartel who felt threatened by such things. Such views betray a certain ignorance of how patents work.

Cheers,

R.
 
muf said:
Kodak could have put effort into creating a digital insert to go into film camera's. Something that is shaped and contoured like a film canister that has a thin plate protruding out of the side that replicates the film location behind the lens. It would have a sensor in it so when you wind, it is ready for the digital unit to store the shot at the press of the shutter. It would be removable so you can plug it into a PC to download the data. The only reason this hasn't been developed is because of greed. Selling camera's is far more profitable than equipping old camera's with the capability to keep functioning in the digital revolution.

Paul
Click to expand...

Assuming this were possible, as it seems to be very difficult. Could you please explain how it would change anything for Kodak?

Only reason is greed... As you conclude yourself, selling new cameras is far more profitable than retrofit, why on earth should this save Kodak?
 
jsrockit said:
But does an increase in a niche product mean much to a company like Kodak long term? It appears that it doesn't.
Click to expand...
If Kodak was just a consumer film company then it would help them a lot. Ilford is doing pretty well precisely because they are focused on black and white traditional photography only. Kodak is a different beast altogether and it's problems have a lot more to them than just film. I have no doubt that if the film division were spun off it could survive making a niche product.
 
diagularax said:
I agree totally with your post.

If film had a real future with potential growth cameras like the Nikon F6 would still be on dealer's shelves. This was the last serious film camera made and it struggles to survive in a digital age. The Lomo thing has little relevance to film's future IMO ... it's more more about fashion and image! As for Cosina's rangefinders ... I'm sure one large department store will sell more digital point and shoots in a year than their entire output of film based cameras!
Click to expand...
Anything that's getting people to use film is relevant to film's future whether it's about fashion and image or not. Heck, Leica's advertising is mostly based on fashion and image and it works for them (uh oh, I just opened a can o worms!).
 
sig said:
Assuming this were possible, as it seems to be very difficult. Could you please explain how it would change anything for Kodak?

Only reason is greed... As you conclude yourself, selling new cameras is far more profitable than retrofit, why on earth should this save Kodak?
Click to expand...

Well, just how many film camera's are out there? I would say, a lot more than digital. Why do most people use digital over film? Convenience. So if a unit existed that allowed consumers to take digital pictures with their existing film camera's then I am sure the public would jump on it. If Kodak had pursued this and succeeded, I am sure they wouldn't be in the situation they are now. Of course, they still would need to get into digital camera's, but maybe they could have done it at a pace that they were comfortable with.

Roger Hicks said:
You're right. There's been a lot of vapourware but never anything that anyone independent of the manufacturers could get their hands on. I've met several people who said they were going to do it, and several who actually tried. Neither group succeeded. This is basically a folk-myth for wishful thinkers, along with the million-year light-bulb and the car that runs on water, where 'the patents' were bought up by a non-existent cartel who felt threatened by such things. Such views betray a certain ignorance of how patents work.

Cheers,

R.
Click to expand...


Yep, you are bang on! It probably doesn't exist and is a myth. Although I could imagine all the manufacturers getting together and 'paying off' anyone who invented a gadget that allowed film camera's to transition to digital and then let it die after claiming the patent. Isn't that pretty much what the hearsay is regarding the million year light bulb. It was invented but someone was paid off to shut up about it.

Paul
 
dallard said:
Anything that's getting people to use film is relevant to film's future whether it's about fashion and image or not. Heck, Leica's advertising is mostly based on fashion and image and it works for them (uh oh, I just opened a can o worms!).
Click to expand...


True ... but I worry that the whole hipster Lomo thing will only last until this group finds their next trend!

Call me cynical! 😛
 
muf said:
Well, just how many film camera's are out there? I would say, a lot more than digital. Why do most people use digital over film? Convenience. So if a unit existed that allowed consumers to take digital pictures with their existing film camera's then I am sure the public would jump on it. If Kodak had pursued this and succeeded, I am sure they wouldn't be in the situation they are now. Of course, they still would need to get into digital camera's, but maybe they could have done it at a pace that they were comfortable with.
Click to expand...

I'm afraid those "existing film cameras" of which you speak don't, um, exist anymore. They were dumped at yard sales and thrift stores, or simply into the trash, years ago. Those who still keep their old film gear somewhere in a dusty closet have moved on, and in many cases, have forgotten how to use it. What would be their incentive to go back?

The potential market for the "digital film cartridge," if indeed it could be made, consists only of us hoarders, i.e. the ones who amassed the yard sale and Goodwill finds at a buck apiece, and who hold on to quality film gear because it's still mighty fine gear, inconvenience be damned.

Not that this would have saved Kodak. Not back then, post-APS, when consumers might have embraced it for a while, and certainly not now, when the potential market is tiny.
 
No wonder my friend lost her job there. Chapter 7 closes the doors immediately. Chapter 11 reconfigures its debt so it can survive to fight another day. If Kodak requires further loans those may not be forthcoming, why throw good money after bad money?

Looks like this patient is in mortal condition. Its been in a long decline.
 
Film is going the way of ...

Film is going the way of ...

diagularax said:
True ... but I worry that the whole hipster Lomo thing will only last until this group finds their next trend!

Call me cynical! 😛
Click to expand...

Film and film cameras are going to go the way of fountain pens and not the way of buggy whips. You can still buy fountain pens. Ask yourself why.

Kodak and other film brands need to PIVOT their brand DNA in order to survive. Possibly a pivot from "Regular Guy" or "Innocent" to "Creator" or "Outlaw".

How?

See http://www.zilyen.com/ or better yet, read the book "The Hero and the Outlaw"

i-tGCqQKx-X3.jpg
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom