Kodak on 10 Brands that will Disappear in 2010 List

[sevo]

It was my understanding that everything comes off master rolls. Sheet film, roll film, etc. It is what is done after that which makes it different. Slitting, perforation, and packaging.

Nope, there is quite a variety of master rolls for different purposes. For example, 35mm (and below) generally aren't back coated, while all larger or thinner film has to be, to prevent bulging. Besides, film holders and film paths were designed for the particular strength of the matching system film - variations beyond fairly narrow limits will interfere with focus and transport.

 

[Mackinaw]

Yes, I'd seen the link before. Dated 2007. Where are those commercial-grade products it makes?

All of those who have in the past stomped off swearing that they would just do it themselves have all failed to return with the commercial results of their energy. Jim Mowry did actually create film on his own, and apparently this fellow too. None of them have created commercial film for sale, and I think that's pretty indicative of how high the bar to entry really is.

How long are you willing to wait? I imagine very few film users would opt for this home-made stuff, now, in 2010, as long as they have easy access to Kodak, Ilford and Fuji B&W films. 20 years from now, when these companies are no longer producing film (an assumption on my part), these home-made film machines may be the only game in town and could be doing a landmark business.

Time will tell.

Jim B.

 

[jwc57]

I was discussing this thread today with my wife and business partner. She suggests we fill the freezer with film. Her reasoning? That a belief that film is on its way out, will prompt more people to abandon film, which makes it a self-fulfilling prediction.

 

[sevo]

I was discussing this thread today with my wife and business partner. She suggests we fill the freezer with film. Her reasoning? That a belief that film is on its way out, will prompt more people to abandon film, which makes it a self-fulfilling prediction.

Which supports my belief that these threads are at least partially fuelled by viral marketing...

 

[jwc57]

Which supports my belief that these threads are at least partially fuelled by viral marketing...

I hadn't thought about that....mmmmm.

 

[Keith]

We can debate on when to schedule film's funeral. But, I think there is little argument that film is becoming increasingly invisible in mainstream retail channels in the U.S. New film cameras have been invisible for years now. If someone wants to take up film photography, they need to buy from speciality suppliers.

I think this a really important paragraph regarding the near invisibility of film, film cameras and the the people who still choose to use them.

If I was not a photography type person but woke up one morning and decided that that's what I wanted to be from now on ... and to complicate matters I wanted to use a film camera and shoot film I'd have a problem. In this city of a couple of million people that I live in I honestly wouldn't have a clue where to go if I wanted to buy a film camera ... new or second hand! If I managed to get hold of a camera through a specialty supplier, which I could no doubt do, it would require a fair bit of research on my part via the internet or similar to locate such a supplier.

My next issue would be film which is also almost invisible in the mainstream ... very few outlets stock it and it isn't advertised at all these days ... I would have to go looking again! If I was lucky/unlucky enough to stumble into the largish camera retailer I was in recently browsing, I would find some hidden in the corner of the store with a fair bit of dust on the very meagre display. I would note that HP5+ was $11.00 per roll and Kodak BW400CN was $14.99 per roll! 😱

Having cleared all these hurdles in my determination to be a film shooter I would then have to start thinking about processing ... where and how much. Once I'd discovered that there are actually a couple of pro labs still operating in this city I'd check their prices ... at last count from memory they wanted $12.00 to process a roll of black and white and sleeve the negatives. (no prints)

At this stage I would be adding up the mounting costs and aggravation of wanting to be a film shooter and I'd have to make a logical decision ... to push on as they say and overcome whatever obstacles there are and accept the fact that I want a hobby that may potentially go completely underground and become even more expensive ...

... or, drive to the nearest retail complex and buy a cheap DSLR and kit lens!

 

[jwc57]

It really isn't that difficult to become a film photographer. In my town of 5,000 people, I'd go by the pawn shop (which has three or four P&S film cameras and a Nikon EM) buy the EM...then drive to Kerr Drugs and pick up some film. It's right by the front registers. Shoot the film, take it back to Kerr Drugs to have it developed.

Granted, it may be four days before I see the prints, but....still...

 

[Chris101]

I think this a really important paragraph regarding the near invisibility of film, film cameras and the the people who still choose to use them.

If I was not a photography type person but woke up one morning and decided that that's what I wanted to be from now on ... and to complicate matters I wanted to use a film camera and shoot film I'd have a problem. In this city of a couple of million people that I live in I honestly wouldn't have a clue where to go if I wanted to buy a film camera ... new or second hand! If I managed to get hold of a camera through a specialty supplier, which I could no doubt do, it would require a fair bit of research on my part via the internet or similar to locate such a supplier.

My next issue would be film which is also almost invisible in the mainstream ... very few outlets stock it and it isn't advertised at all these days ... I would have to go looking again! If I was lucky/unlucky enough to stumble into the largish camera retailer I was in recently browsing, I would find some hidden in the corner of the store with a fair bit of dust on the very meagre display. I would note that HP5+ was $11.00 per roll and Kodak BW400CN was $14.99 per roll! 😱

Having cleared all these hurdles in my determination to be a film shooter I would then have to start thinking about processing ... where and how much. Once I'd discovered that there are actually a couple of pro labs still operating in this city I'd check their prices ... at last count from memory they wanted $12.00 to process a roll of black and white and sleeve the negatives. (no prints)

At this stage I would be adding up the mounting costs and aggravation of wanting to be a film shooter and I'd have to make a logical decision ... to push on as they say and overcome whatever obstacles there are and accept the fact that I want a hobby that may potentially go completely underground and become even more expensive ...

... or, drive to the nearest retail complex and buy a cheap DSLR and kit lens!

Phoenix, Arizona is hardly the center of photographic commerce, but there are at least 3 stores here where film is sold, not in some forgotten corner, but prominently displayed behind the counter, and in large double wide glass doored refrigerators (2 or 3 at each store, Photo Forum, Color Mark, and Tempe Camera.) The prices are slightly higher than internet prices, as I would expect (trix for $5.something, delta 3200 for $7.something, SFX for about $11, all in 36 exposure rolls. There are also other kinds of film, but I don't buy them often enough to know the prices by heart.) At at least the latter two of those stores, I can purchase a new in box 35mm camera from Nikon, Canon, Leica or Cosina. And medium format cameras from multiple suppliers as well.

My observations are that, indeed film and cameras that use it are less available than 12 years ago, but not "invisible".

 

[Keith]

Phoenix, Arizona is hardly the center of photographic commerce, but there are at least 3 stores here where film is sold, not in some forgotten corner, but prominently displayed behind the counter, and in large double wide glass doored refrigerators (2 or 3 at each store, Photo Forum, Color Mark, and Tempe Camera.) The prices are slightly higher than internet prices, as I would expect (trix for $5.something, delta 3200 for $7.something, SFX for about $11, all in 36 exposure rolls. There are also other kinds of film, but I don't buy them often enough to know the prices by heart.) At at least the latter two of those stores, I can purchase a new in box 35mm camera from Nikon, Canon, Leica or Cosina. And medium format cameras from multiple suppliers as well.

My observations are that, indeed film and cameras that use it are less available than 12 years ago, but not "invisible".

My post was a slight exhageration and purely hypothetical of course ... but it doesn't hide the fact that this may be a common scenario in areas where you dont live!

Maybe Brisbane will be the first place in the world to officially abandon film and accept the digital tide! 😛

 

[aizan]

gawd, would someone just tell me if color film NEEDS mainstream consumers to still be made?

 

[jwc57]

gawd, would someone just tell me if color film NEEDS mainstream consumers to still be made?

Probably--- for the amount of money that the manufacturers wish to see in their accounts.

I asked earlier if it was possible that consumer film financed pro films back in the day....I feel it is probably very likely.

 

[Chris101]

... this may be a common scenario in areas where you dont live!
...

Yeah, I was talking with my friend, the photo teacher about just that this evening. She said that she hears from the grapevine from other colleges that when students in Photo I hear that the class is not digital, half of them drop right away. She was amazed that at Phoenix College, that never happens!

So we theorized that Phoenix is 25 years behind the times. At least the photo equipment here think it's 1985. That's fine by me! In 1985 I had just bought myself a brand new OM-1n!

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

Yeah, I was talking with my friend, the photo teacher about just that this evening. She said that she hears from the grapevine from other colleges that when students in Photo I hear that the class is not digital, half of them drop right away. She was amazed that at Phoenix College, that never happens!

So we theorized that Phoenix is 25 years behind the times. At least the photo equipment here think it's 1985. That's fine by me! In 1985 I had just bought myself a brand new OM-1n!

In Santa Fe film is still very, very popular among both young and old photographers. Most of the photographers there see themselves as artists rather than commercial photographers. That makes a difference. Kids wanting to do portraits, weddings, or advertising work are going to want digital....pro photography is almost 100% digital now for a lot of reasons like low costs and fast turn-around. Artists often prefer film because they like the craftsmanship aspect that many feel is lacking with digital and those of us who shoot mainly black and white usually like the look of BW film over a color image (film or digital) converted to BW on the computer. If someone made a BW only camera with monochrome sensor and sold it at a price that artists could afford, I think many of us would go digital.

Anyway, I don't think its a matter of being behind the times. The southwest has a lot of fine art photographers. Indiana, where i live now, truly is 25 or more years behind the times. People here are ultra-conservative, enslaved by religion, proud of their ignorance, and disdainful of the idea that blacks, gays, and women should be treated as fully human. THAT is being behind the times! Despite the cultural backwardness, virtually no one here shoots film....there are almost no artists here. The photographers here do portraits and commercial work only, or snaps of their kids in the case of the amateurs.

 

[Lilserenity]

It's odd how sometimes the perception of something is stronger than the reality of something.

But I really see where Keith is coming from in his points.

I live in a moderately big town (pop. 100,000) and we have a few shops but unless I've missed it only one real photographic supplies store, then we have chains of things like Boots and Jessops which sell a sideline of film.

The perception from most people in Worthing certainly is that can you still even get film -- that perception is stronger than the reality, it self reinforces itself and almost substitutes reality.

I'm just lucky that 800yds from my front door I have an excellent store stocking just about everything from film, paper, chemicals -- the lot. I could even pick up a lens for a Mamiya C in there too, but they also sell digital bits and bobs.

Brighton (15 miles away) is a different matter with its artsy bohemian vibe and you can find film and supplies in handful of shops, and there's even a lomography -- whatever you think of that -- shop! It also does help that it's a university town (2 unis, Brighton and Sussex -- I went to the former) and that has a big impact on what it stocks. The main reason my local store is probably still trading is because it supplies a large region of the South's colleges and schools -- without that business, I'm sure this kind of business would be concentrated in Brighton and other cities.

Anyway, all I am alluding to is the further concentration of such stores is only going to fuel the mainstream perception of film being unavailable, which self perpetuates itself subtituting reality and eventually becoming reality.

Recent snowfalls in the south of England were significant for England but puny compared to what I have seen and walked around in Chicago, but there was a perception that some supplies might not get through (yep it's truly pathetic but go with me on this) and so people started buying up more milk and bread than usual, this increase created the perception of there being a shortage and it self perpetuated. Such that in the end some fools were buying ridiculous amounts of milk which could only turn the perception of shortage into a reality!

Vicky

 

[Chris101]

Chris, Phoenix is no Santa Fe! In fact we bear more resemblance to Gallup, but with more people and more liquor stores! Our hit list of sub-humans is similar to Indiana's except we put teachers at the top of the list. Our esteemed legislature decided to balance the state budget by cutting education spending, despite the fact that we were already spending less per student than any other state!

Yet we do manage to cultivate some art here.

 

[btgc]

If I was not a photography type person but woke up one morning and decided that that's what I wanted to be from now on ... and to complicate matters I wanted to use a film camera and shoot film I'd have a problem.

very true...and again, it depends. Recently boy I know, expressed interest in photography. Having had digicams and not having money for DSLR, he bought complete film SLR kit (body, 3 lenses, hoods, flash, filters, release cable - all in a bag) for $80. He shoots cheap consumer color negative film and is happy as one can be. When color negative will be gone, he either will continue with b&w film (maybe) or write off those investments and start from scratch.

At least, boy is using proper tools not wimpy digicam (which can be fine as supplementary camera, not as main), he has no idea what wake-up or shutter lag is, how it is to stop shooting because of flat battery or fuss with small buttons and deep menus to change basic settings (if they can be adjusted at all).

What I said right now? Only that he has GREAT chance to develop good sense how gear supports photographer. When he will decide to go digital, I think he will reject dumb cameras with complex controls, offering large LCD at cost of simplicity and speed of operation. In this context cheap film gear right now is hard not to use.

 

[Keith]

It's odd how sometimes the perception of something is stronger than the reality of something.

But I really see where Keith is coming from in his points.

I live in a moderately big town (pop. 100,000) and we have a few shops but unless I've missed it only one real photographic supplies store, then we have chains of things like Boots and Jessops which sell a sideline of film.

The perception from most people in Worthing certainly is that can you still even get film -- that perception is stronger than the reality, it self reinforces itself and almost substitutes reality.

I'm just lucky that 800yds from my front door I have an excellent store stocking just about everything from film, paper, chemicals -- the lot. I could even pick up a lens for a Mamiya C in there too, but they also sell digital bits and bobs.

Brighton (15 miles away) is a different matter with its artsy bohemian vibe and you can find film and supplies in handful of shops, and there's even a lomography -- whatever you think of that -- shop! It also does help that it's a university town (2 unis, Brighton and Sussex -- I went to the former) and that has a big impact on what it stocks. The main reason my local store is probably still trading is because it supplies a large region of the South's colleges and schools -- without that business, I'm sure this kind of business would be concentrated in Brighton and other cities.

Anyway, all I am alluding to is the further concentration of such stores is only going to fuel the mainstream perception of film being unavailable, which self perpetuates itself subtituting reality and eventually becoming reality.

Recent snowfalls in the south of England were significant for England but puny compared to what I have seen and walked around in Chicago, but there was a perception that some supplies might not get through (yep it's truly pathetic but go with me on this) and so people started buying up more milk and bread than usual, this increase created the perception of there being a shortage and it self perpetuated. Such that in the end some fools were buying ridiculous amounts of milk which could only turn the perception of shortage into a reality!

Vicky

The scenario I painted is a slightly exagerated reality in my city ... though I'm not sure about other major Australian centres ... maybe it's different!

That said Brisbane must have mirrors all around the world where what I've described can be repeated ad nauseum ... and this is where film is in more than a little trouble IMO. You can always buy a film camera if you really want one and film can of course be obtained at a sensible price but it certainly doesn't hit you in the face as to how you should go about it!

Without the internet my dedication to film would be unrealistic ... I know that Cameraquest can sell me a new Bessa if I need one as can the Voigtlander distributor in Sydney. Film is readily available from Freestyle in the US at excellent prices and is usually here in a week or less and developing my own black and white along with colour is now a natural process for me!

Digital photography is now the global norm and can be achieved by the average individual in the blink of an eye ... to be a film shooter you have to be prepared to make a little more effort and as we know people will generally take the path of least resistance.

 

[gilpen123]

I will stock up 2,200 films good until Dec. 21, 2012.

 

[Pickett Wilson]

If you walk into a Walmart or a Target or a Kmart or Sears or Wards or...you will not find a film camera to buy. 200 million people a week walk through the doors of one of Wal-Mart's store's alone. If there are no film cameras in the places people actually shop, they do not exist.

I buy stuff from B&H all the time. The only person I know of who has ever heard of B&H photo is my UPS driver, because he has delivered all those boxes! That's the reality.

 

[btgc]

If you walk into a Walmart or a Target or a Kmart or Sears or Wards or...you will not find a film camera to buy. 200 million people a week walk through the doors of one of Wal-Mart's store's alone. If there are no film cameras in the places people actually shop, they do not exist.

It's interesting how people get to their powders and mushrooms - they aren't available in stores ? 😉