Kodak Retina IIIC scam????

[colyn]

I have compared my IIIC with the photos provided on the auction and the one and only difference I could find is the Gossen name embossed in the meter diffuser of the "RARE" model.

The seller says "THIS IS NOT THE REGULAR LARGE 3C AND PUT SIDE BY SIDE YOU CAN SEE THE DIFFERENCE" . Sorry but I can't...

I have in my parts box a Retina Reflex which used the same body/meter as the IIIC and it has the same Gossen diffuser so that in my opinion rules out a later made diffuser for this model.

Whether or not this auction is a scam I cannot say but I suspect the camera is nothing more than a production model with a new top plate.

 

[former member]

Gossen is on the diffuser of my Reflex S series cameras, early 1960s. It is not on my IIIS or IIIc. I think it is also on my Auto III, 1964 vintage.

 

[Gumby]

The seller says "THIS IS NOT THE REGULAR LARGE 3C AND PUT SIDE BY SIDE YOU CAN SEE THE DIFFERENCE" . Sorry but I can't...

Actually, me neither. Maybe we just don't have discriminating eyes?

 

[former member]

I've picked up some "slightly different" cameras before, mostly Nikons. A Nikon F Apollo with a SN in the 7303xxx range, with a white (not) black insulation around the flash contact. Steel inserts on the Strap Lugs, and looks mostly like my late Nikon F Apollo- except that insulation. Most Apollo's appeared much later, but these early ones are known to exist. Special production run for a big customer? Who knows, but the differences are there. Two Nikon F2's that did not have steel inserts, etc that I already mentioned. I've spent a lot of years looking for "stupid little meaningless differences between identical cameras of different runs in the production". I can rationalize owning multiples of the same camera models. Like Eleven Nikon F2's and Nine Nikon F's.

I'm not seeing the glaring differences on this Retina IIIC compared with a regular production run. If they are so subtle, the seller needs to closely document it. I can get a macro shot of the steel Strap Lug inserts in that 7303xxx Nikon F Apollo and show the difference in the pre-production Lever Advance Tips of the F2 sitting next to a standard production F2. You'll have to take my word that they are made of metal, not plastic- unless I borrow a thermal imager.

 

[Gumby]

If they are so subtle, the seller needs to closely document it.

If you would be so kind as to send me a Retina IIIC, I'll call the seller and stop by his shop to do a comparison. Shall I send you my address? 😀

 

[former member]

Colyn has the IIIC. I have the IIC and IIIc. Not to be confused. The IIC is identical to the IIIC except it does not have the light meter, but does have all of the mounting brackets for it. I could turn my IIC into a IIIC. It works perfectly with an F2 front element. But I won't...

After taking apart a lot of Kodak Retina's (well, between 20 and 30), it amazes me about the parts re-use from one model to the next. You can replace a pressure plate on a IIa with one from a IIIc. The IIIS and Retina Reflex-S use many common parts, and I rebuilt a $20 IIIS missing a number of parts using a dead Reflex-S. Transferred and calibrated the light meter, door latch, etc. If only that damned gear Rack were made out of stronger material!

And I know one IIC that does not change F-Stop as you change Shutter Speed. I modified it for an RFF member.

If you would be so kind as to send me a Retina IIIC, I'll call the seller and stop by his shop to do a comparison. Shall I send you my address? 😀

Better Idea: Have him send me the IIIC in question, and I'll get the macro shots using my 60/2.8 Micro-Nikkor on the Nikon E3 with SB-29. That will get just about any detail, including strap lug inserts.

 

[ZeissFan]

The Retina IIS shares the body shell with the Ib/IB, IIc/IIC, IIIc/IIIC in a nonfolding design. It's also the same body shell as the Retina Reflex and/or possibly the Reflex S (can't recall exactly, as I haven't looked at them in a while).

From an economic point of view, it made sense to reuse parts and tooling as much as possible.

If you changed the IIc into a IIIc, you'd want to swap out the lens elements too, as the IIc is an f/2.8 Xenon, while the IIIc is an f/2.0 Xenon. But I know what you mean. You can see all of the bracket and screw holes.

The Contax IIa and IIIa are similar in that respect. They're the same camera except for the meter, top deck and rewind knob of the IIIa. Same applies to the Contax II and III.

Economies of scale.

 

[former member]

The Retina IIIS uses the interchangeable lenses of the Reflex cameras, the IIS is a fixed lens and "evolved" into the Auto III.

The IIIS is the same body shell as the Reflex S, but is longer than the IIS. The base plate on the IIIS and Reflex-S is interchangeable.The IIS is the same body shell as the Auto III, and is very close to the IIc/IIIc.

The rear module of the F2.8 lens and F2.0 lens is the same. I've taken several out, and interchanged some of them. I know about the SN of the rear module, front module, and mounting plate all matching- but in practice, I have found it makes little difference. I put the F2.0 front module onto my IIC and it was quite sharp at F2.0. Most IIC's and IIc's have a physical stop at F2.8. My particular IIC opens up to F2.0, even though it is unmarked. I think it was more marketing than anything else.

The other thing I find confusing: Retina cameras have two parallel SN streams. I have a IIIS with a Sn in the 700K range, and another in the 52K range. I have replacement top plates that run in the 800K and 70K range for the Retina Reflex III. I suspect two plants produced the cameras in parallel, and each used their own SN blocks. I do not know, and have not seen anything written to explain it- but have not looked hard.

Also: I'm glad I opened the Big Leather Field Case that has about 10 of my working Retina cameras in it. I forgot a (postwar) Retina II with Xenon lens that is now working again, parts scavenged from a third Retina II with an incomplete lens. I'll have to test the Retina II Xenon against the Retina II Ektar. Also: the SN of the Retina II (not IIa) is inside the camera, on the back as you open it. It is not on the top plate. All of my Retina IIa cameras had the SN on the Top Plate. There are two versions of top plates for the IIa, and they are not interchangeable with out modifying an internal stop on the body for the film counter to work.

Retina naming convention reminds me of the Taxi Episode when the Rev Jim gets confused over which is safe to eat, "Blue Berries" or "Blueberries".

 

[BillBingham2]

Brian,

Please let me know what you end up with (Xeon vs Ektar), would love to know.

B2 (;->

 

[colyn]

Brian,

Please let me know what you end up with (Xeon vs Ektar), would love to know.

B2 (;->

I've had both and find the Xenon has a slight edge on the Ektar..at least so in my opinion..

 

[Bill58]

IF I was the seller, I'd provide a letter in the ad from an independent, respected expert that says he has personally examined this camera (serial #______) and it is authentic (as represented). Without that, I'd be highly dubious.

 

[mgd711]

huh! 😕 remina, how is that advertisement relevant 🙄

Its not, it’s a spammer.......

 

[retro]

McKeown's book states that the special edition IIICs have their
serial number embossed into the leather on the back of the
camera and the numbers are 997xxx or 998xxx.

 

[kodaknagel]

Typ 028/N Nachbau Retina IIIC camera

Typ 028/N Nachbau Retina IIIC camera

OK - Folks -

The Typ 028/N Nachbau Retina IIIC was made in 1977 in celebration of the 50th anniversary of Kodak A.G. in Germany.

This special Nachbau Typ 028/N Retina IIIC was made from spare parts, was hand assembled and was given to VIPs as gifts.

HSRC data shows that slightly more than 125+ cameras were made.

Attributes of a Typ 028/N Nachbau Retina IIIC:
1. No serial number on top chrome housing ( spare part )
2. Invoice number 997xxx or 998xxx embossed on back door leatherette.
There are no engraving machines in use in 1977 at Kodak A.G. -
this is why the number is embossed !
3. Always has a metric focus scale.
4. Always has "Gossen" on front lens cell of exposure meter ( spare part )
Gossen is not present on standard production Typ 028 Retina IIIC cameras
unless they were repaired.
4. Always has a Retina-Xenon f:2 or f2.0/50mm lens which can have a serial number from the entire range of this lens as these cameras are made from spare parts.
5. A small disc on the bottom of the film chamber is made of black plastic, not aluminum alloy as on regular production Typ 028 Retina IIIC cameras.
6. There is a special casting number inside the front folding door -
but this information will be kept secret to prevent fakes.

I will not give several other attributes as I do not wish fake cameras to be created from spare parts.

Authentification by a well published Retina camera historian is recommend before considering the purchase of a Nachbau

- Caveat emptor.

 

[colyn]

3. Always has a metric focus scale.

Then this one is a fake since the focus scale is in feet...

4. Always has "Gossen" on front lens cell of exposure meter ( spare part )
Gossen is not present on standard production Typ 028 Retina IIIC cameras
unless they were repaired.

I have a IIIC given to me in 1961 with the Gossen lens cell. Never been repaired since I have owned it.

 

[kodaknagel]

Colyn,

Could we see some photos of your Typ 028 Retina IIIC with Gossen on the exposure meter.

We have nevere seen it even in the late production models in the 100xxx and 101xxx serial number range.

More on production of the Typ 028 Retina IIIC to follow.

Dave

 

[kodaknagel]

More info on the Typ 028 Retina IIIC

More info on the Typ 028 Retina IIIC

Typ 028 Retina IIIC was manufactured from November 28, 1957 until the middle of 1960.

The HSRC identified body serial number ranges are EK 753822 to 755546, EK 756296 to EK758715, 761500 to 764379, 50003 to 101376, and EK 800009 to EK806823.

EK serial number prefix is for Eastman Kodak imports to North America for warranty purposes.

HSRC estimate of total production if the Typ 028 Retina IIIC based on serial number data is 66,010+ cameras.

HSRC database shows 91 % of Retina IIIC cameras have a Retina-Xenon C lens and
9% have a Retina-Heligon C lens.

16000 of the late production Typ 028 Retina IIIC cameras have the ASA 3200/DIN 36 exposure meter.

The last manual for the Typ 028 Retina IIIC we have identified has a publication date of June of 1960.

The last Retina-Xenon C lenses for the Typ 028 Retina IIIC have a serial number series of 6448xxx and were manufactured in March of 1960.

The presence of Gossen on exposure meters on Retina cameras is first seen in late 1960 and early 1961.

 

[kodaknagel]

Kodak Retina IIIC scam ????

Kodak Retina IIIC scam ????

One more thing - the Typ 028 Retina IIIC on that ebay offering is a mystery !

I would never state that " it is a fake " - The camera simply does not make criteria as a Typ 028/N Nachbau from 1977.

That particular camera has many more attributes of a true Nachbau than I have seen in just repaired cameras.

I am not quite certain what this Retina IIIC is , but I can tell you that I would not call it a fake - I think it was built this way originally for many reasons -

I just can not tell you when it was built or why it was built !

But the constellation of findings in this particular Typ 028 Retina IIIC offered on ebay make it a rarity.

The buyer must decide for themselves if they want this rare Retina IIIC.

 

[rpjasin]

Retina IIIC/N

Retina IIIC/N

Haven't logged in in a while and was glad to see this discussion happening. When this camera was first offered over a year ago I posted a comment about it that seemed to fall on deaf ears, so I am glad you folks have an interest after all. The IIIC/N is currently on ebay as I write this, and I can tell you that when it was offered earlier this year, I was in touch with the seller who put me in touch with none other than the world expert on Retinas, David L. Jentz. Mr. Jentz responded to me on 2-7-09 the following: "The Typ 028 Retina IIIC that photobuffman is offering has 6 of 7 attributes of a Typ 028/N Nachbau Retina IIIC camera, but it lacks a serial number embossed in the back door leatherette. Now the 6 attributes this camera has could only come from later assembly outside of the typical 1958 to 1960 production time of the standard Typ 028 Retina IIIC cameras. I can not tell you when his Typ 028 Retina IIIC camera was assembled, only that it has 6 of 7 attributes of the 1977 Nachbau model. You must decide for yourself if you want this camera. The real McCoy Typ 028/N Retina IIIC cameras have the serial number embossed in the back door leatherette in an area below the viewfinder window. The serial number is actually an invoice number and is 6 digits starting as 997xxx or 998xxx. From our data, we have estimated that 120+ were made in 1977 for the 50th anniversary of Kodak. A.G. and were given to V.I.P.s Some had special engravings also present on the back of the top chrome housing that were specific for the V.I.P. receiving this fine gift. Without the proper serial number embossed in the back door leather, I can not verify when this camera was made. I can only tell you that it is a good bet it was assembled much later than standard production because of some internal and external differences from standard production cameras. Many of the special parts used in this camera and the Nachbau cameras where not in existence until the late 1960's.

Again, you must decide whether you want this camera - I can tell you that what he is offering is quite rare, but I can not tell you that it was made in 1977". Well, there you have it. Doesn't sound like a scam to me. In my correspondence with Photobuffman, I know he is an avid Retina collector and he told me he had over 200 Retinas and Retinettes and has since sold many of them to cover his personal expenses. Even though he is spelling challenged I believe him to be an honest person that truly loves Retinas. Do keep in mind though, like with anything, "Caveat Emptor". Bob, proud owner of a IIa, Ib, IIC, IIIC, IIIS, automatic III, Reflex S, Reflex IV and all the lenses.​

 

[Gumby]

Bob, That is EXACTLY what the seller says in both his listings and persponal correspondence... except to those who started their enquiry with "I think you're scamming".