Kodak T-Max 400 Fixing Query

[Freakscene]

1. Thanks, important reminder.


2. I've had a lot of silver coat the inside of my bottle, looked neat (Tetenal fixer). Started after only a few rolls, and still worked very quickly, so I kept using it a while. Do I need to worry?

Blue-black or metallic looking silver?

Marty

 

[Freakscene]

Marty, have you been using Fomafix for fixing FB papers as well? I'm asking because the only dilution Foma gives is 1+5 (and 1+4 for macine processing) so I wonder if their fixer is perhaps weaker (containing less ammonium thiosulfate) in comparison to say Hypam. I tend to fix FB papers in two baths of Hypam/Ilford Rapid Fix at 1+9, each for 1'.

BTW, 2-bath fixing works very well for T-MAX films.

Yes, I’ve used Fomafix for FB paper. I used 1+5 for about 1.5 min based on a fixation test. 1+5 suggests it is slightly stronger than Hypam. Ammonium thiosulfate comes as standard as a ~60% solution in water, so I doubt it’s really much different, but it might be. If Foma don’t recommend higher dilutions there could be a reason, or they may just have not put that on the label. I tend to do rather than think with film these days.

I have also used two-bath fixation for film, but generally don’t anymore. I just save up films, use chemsitry and carry on. If I was working professionally and had to consider material costs I’d consider working that way to save some running costs.

Marty

 

[Freakscene]

Beautiful shot, Marty!

Also many thanks for your chemical explanations. They can be useful.

Thanks Erik, on both counts. I enjoy the consistency of the images you post here very much; it speaks volumes about control of the process you use.

Marty

 

[mcfingon]

Now, go take some photos. And later, when you develop the film, time clearing or measure the silver in the fixing, and forget all this. Kodak worked this out a long time ago. All you need to do is run with it.

On Plus-X (sniff) fixed with Fomafix liquid 1+5 (as recommended by Foma) for 5 minutes (2x the clearing time).

Marty

Thanks for all the info Marty and I enjoyed the Plus-X pic. One quirk of the image is that it the background reminds me of a melting emulsion look...
John Mc

 

[miha]

Yes, I’ve used Fomafix for FB paper. I used 1+5 for about 1.5 min based on a fixation test. 1+5 suggests it is slightly stronger than Hypam. Ammonium thiosulfate comes as standard as a ~60% solution in water, so I doubt it’s really much different, but it might be. If Foma don’t recommend higher dilutions there could be a reason, or they may just have not put that on the label. I tend to do rather than think with film these days.

I have also used two-bath fixation for film, but generally don’t anymore. I just save up films, use chemsitry and carry on. If I was working professionally and had to consider material costs I’d consider working that way to save some running costs.

Marty

Thaks Marty. Single bath with FB for 1.5 min, correct?

 

[Freakscene]

Thanks for all the info Marty and I enjoyed the Plus-X pic. One quirk of the image is that it the background reminds me of a melting emulsion look...
John Mc

Thanks John. Taken in Hradčany, Prague, in what seems like the dim past. I’ve been back recently but didn’t walk past here; the wall is probably repaired and painted now.

Marty

 

[Ted Striker]

I have been using TMax 400 for some time now. I tend to use the same fixer dilution for 3 films and then discard. I have not seen any difference for 3 films but if the data sheet says so I believe it. I make a new solution after 3 films. Maybe it is me being overcautious.

Wow...that's crazy. I typically fix up to 16 rolls of TMAX 400 film per batch of Ilford Rapid fixer. Have done so for almost 10 years. Never a problem.

 

[Freakscene]

Thaks Marty. Single bath with FB for 1.5 min, correct?

Yes, but test for proper fixation, it worked for me with Foma FB paper, but the time for others may vary.

Marty

 

[Freakscene]

Here: https://scholarworks.rit.edu/cgi/vi....au/&httpsredir=1&article=1836&context=theses is a thesis on fixing. It explains everything.

Marty

 

[jawarden]

Wow...that's crazy. I typically fix up to 16 rolls of TMAX 400 film per batch of Ilford Rapid fixer. Have done so for almost 10 years. Never a problem.

What is a "batch"? 500ml? 1L? A gallon? When I fix 120 I mix 500ml and would not fix 16 rolls with it.

I agree that fixing only three rolls seems overly cautious, and testing is easy enough to do.

 

[retinax]

Blue-black or metallic looking silver?

Marty

Rather metallic, more so from the outside, through the bottle, darker than e.g. silver tableware though.

 

[oldwino]

Wow...that's crazy. I typically fix up to 16 rolls of TMAX 400 film per batch of Ilford Rapid fixer. Have done so for almost 10 years. Never a problem.

That's typical for me, too. I get about 20 rolls per liter with Tri-X or Kentmere 400 or HP5.

Of course, I do the clearing test before every roll when the roll count is getting up there.

 

[Russell W. Barnes]

I typically fix up to 16 rolls of TMAX 400 film per batch of Ilford Rapid fixer. Have done so for almost 10 years. Never a problem.

That's good to know, Ted: Thanks. I do two films at a time so that'll be three fixes for my five TMax films. But I'll keep my eye on things. I also use Ilford rapid fixer.

 

[charjohncarter]

Marty great picture, and great fixer explanation. I liked the last part just do what Kodak tells you to do.

 

[Ted Striker]

What is a "batch"? 500ml? 1L? A gallon? When I fix 120 I mix 500ml and would not fix 16 rolls with it.

I agree that fixing only three rolls seems overly cautious, and testing is easy enough to do.

Good question. Answer: 1 liter.

 

[Freakscene]

Rather metallic, more so from the outside, through the bottle, darker than e.g. silver tableware though.

So is the bottle transparent glass or plastic?

What usually precipitates in heavily used fixer is the silver-thiosulfate complex. It looks black but can look metallic if it is smooth. I have only ever seen it in machine processors or where fixer was contaminated with developer.

Flecks that are white or yellowish are sulfure.

Flecks that are other colours are antihalation / antistatic layers and dyes used for sensitization.

The reaction constants push very heavily towards the silver-thiosulfate complex. If metallic silver is precipitating from your fixer something very odd is going on. From a practical perspective, however, if the clearing time is less than 2x that of fresh fixer, and/or the silver content is under 6g/L, you should be fine. So no need to worry.

Checking exactly what is going on is too much trouble to worry about. It involves a lot of technically invested (or expensive) testing.

Edit! Do you use stop bath, or rinse, or put your film straight from the developer into the fix? There is nothing wrong with that, in the sense that your negatives will be fine, although your fixer will need discarding more frequently due to the alkali and silver from the developer. Your fixer may be receiving residual silver from the developer.

Marty

 

[retinax]

Yup, translucent plastic bottle.
Thank you for the help, I think it's harmless then. Still weird that it happened so quickly and yes,
I always give the film a thorough rinse before it goes in the fix.

So is the bottle transparent glass or plastic?

What usually precipitates in heavily used fixer is the silver-thiosulfate complex. It looks black but can look metallic if it is smooth. I have only ever seen it in machine processors or where fixer was contaminated with developer.

Flecks that are white or yellowish are sulfure.

Flecks that are other colours are antihalation / antistatic layers and dyes used for sensitization.

The reaction constants push very heavily towards the silver-thiosulfate complex. If metallic silver is precipitating from your fixer something very odd is going on. From a practical perspective, however, if the clearing time is less than 2x that of fresh fixer, and/or the silver content is under 6g/L, you should be fine. So no need to worry.

Checking exactly what is going on is too much trouble to worry about. It involves a lot of technically invested (or expensive) testing.

Edit! Do you use stop bath, or rinse, or put your film straight from the developer into the fix? There is nothing wrong with that, in the sense that your negatives will be fine, although your fixer will need discarding more frequently due to the alkali and silver from the developer. Your fixer may be receiving residual silver from the developer.

Marty

 

[miha]

Here: https://scholarworks.rit.edu/cgi/vi....au/&httpsredir=1&article=1836&context=theses is a thesis on fixing. It explains everything.

Marty

Good paper. Except for the Hypo elimination part (amonia) which is not recommended any more.

What caught my attention is the fact that the paper recommends the use of the second bath or a washaid in order to either prevent the formation of double and triple silver thiosulfate complexes (second fixing bath) or to promote removing them from the emulsion by swelling the gelatine allowing the large complexes to diffuse out into the wash water (washaid).

The above is in-line with the Ilford Processing and Finishing Ilford PB papers document.

 

[Freakscene]

Good paper. Except for the Hypo elimination part (amonia) which is not recommended any more.

What caught my attention is that fact that the paper recommends the use of the second bath or a washaid in order to either prevent the formation of double and triple silver thiosulfate complexes (second fixing bath) or to promote removing them from the emulsion by swelling the gelatine allowing the large complexes to diffuse out into the wash water (washaid).

The above is in-line with the Ilford Processing and Finishing Ilford PB papers document.

Indeed, the basic approach has been understood for a long time.

Ammonia works, but later work showed that exposure to it was bad for archival stability of film and paper.

Marty

 

[leicapixie]

1.
Thanks,

important reminder
The silver on side of bottles is not embedded!
That silver can migrate onto films being fixed and make white spots..
Filter all your chemicals: use new bottles at each new stop bath, fixers.
I use 2 fixers always, paper or film.
It is only a few minutes more.
I stopped using T-Max due to longer fixing times and uncertainty.
I also don't like the "digital" look., plus Kodak's "Shirley Temple " curls..