Konica Auto S3 - battery compartment wiring?

[kuuan]

Bought a Konica C35 FD ( = Auto S3 ) yesterday here in Osaka, Japan for just a few dollars because it's meter is dead. When I checked it out in the shop I saw that it had a corroded battery still inserted so I have hopes that getting the battery compartment working again may be all that is needed to make it work. ( on the other hand this shops deals with used cameras and have their own repair shop, so they must have checked it out..)
Anyway I just opened it sure found that both wires are corroded and not soldered to the battery compartment any more.

Since I am a beginner in trying to repair cameras please let me ask before I make a mistake:
If I connect the wrong wires, will I kill it?
There is a yellow and a blue wire: Which one is for + which one for - ?
the blue one runs sideways, the yellow one enters the camera towards the lens,
please see the photo, the battery compartment is removed, free ends of yellow and blue wires:

In case I get it to work..:
the original battery was 1.3 Volt. If I use a LR44 1.5 Volt battery in which way do I have to change the ISO setting on the camera to make it measure correctly? E.g for an ISO 400 film, do I have to set the camera to ISO 200 or 800? Or could adding a resistor make it measure correctly? If so, which value?

thank you very much for any input,
best regards,
Andreas

 

[Papa Smurf]

See Rick Oleson

See Rick Oleson

Ruuan, Check out this web site, <[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]rick_oleson@yahoo.com>. I did not see anything specific to your camera, but he has a lot of information and is willing to share. The battery issue has been discussed many times here at RFF and at other sites on the web. Usually, it is recommended to solder a special diode in line with the battery to provide the 2 tenths volt voltage drop. Again, there are several sites devoted to this issue. Search for mercury battery replacement. Somewhere there is the exact info that you require. I have a terrible time myself searching for information, but eventually I do find the info for which I am looking. Good luck, it is so gratifying to be able to repair you own gear. 😀
[/FONT]

 

[kuuan]

thank you very much for your answer Papa Smurf

I did find this comprehensive guide about batteries and how to make your own adapter: http://rick_oleson.tripod.com/batt_adapt_us.pdf

I have not gone through yet, had found it linked in a thread where Rick Oleson says, quote: '[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Personally, I just blow off all that stuff and drop a Zinc/Air 675 cell into it for the same results and lots less hassle' see: [/FONT]http://www.kyphoto.com/classics/forum/messages/15681/11571.html

Have not found yet which cable should go to + and which to -
can anybody tell me if I can go for trial and error without danger of damaging the camera in case of connection it the wrong way around?

thank you,
Andreas

 

[Papa Smurf]

I have not gone through yet, had found it linked in a thread where Rick Oleson says, quote: '[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Personally, I just blow off all that stuff and drop a Zinc/Air 675 cell into it for the same results and lots less hassle' see: [/FONT]http://www.kyphoto.com/classics/forum/messages/15681/11571.html

Have not found yet which cable should go to + and which to -
can anybody tell me if I can go for trial and error without danger of damaging the camera in case of connection it the wrong way around?

thank you,
Andreas

Andreas, I use the zinc/air 675 hearing aid batteries in my Gossen Luna Pro and have had good results, so far. It reads less than one f stop of all of my other light meters and camera mounted light meters. I did not want to recommend that you do that, but now that you have found the info on the web, WTH, go for it!

As far as the wires, can you tell which one might have been longer? That is a clue as to where in the battery compartment it might have been soldered. One is grounded to the camera frame or at least the circuit board ground and the other goes through a switch of some type to the power bus on the circuit board. It is possible that the camera has a diode in line with the power source that will prevent damage. I believe that many cameras had just such a feature to protect it from those that always installed the batteries reversed. If it doesn't then the circuit is probably designed so that a reverse polarity will not do any harm, the camera will just not work. Look around in the camera works for the switch and diode and note the color of wire to and out of each. Search the net for more info. I am too busy right now to do a thorough search for you.

Good luck and keep us informed as to your progress. I am excited at being a part if this adventure. In my former employment, I frequently had to solve mysteries just like this one.

 

[Papa Smurf]

User's guide

User's guide

Andreas, go here for a user's guide that shows how to install the battery <http://www.butkus.org/chinon/konica/konica_c35/konica_c35.pdf> and here <http://www.mattdentonphoto.com/cameras/konica_c35auto.html>. You should be able to determine which wire was connected to the center terminal and which ones was soldered to the camera case by how long they are and by how they lay (routed) in the camera. 🙂

 

[kuuan]

thank you so very much Papa Smurf for your effort and your answers.

I had went ahead and tried out the battery connected both ways, but no indication lights, movements in the viewfinder.
The battery which still had been inside the compartment was corroded which made me think that it is only a case of corroded cables. However these cables are, as mentioned, yellow and blue and not black and red like mentioned in one of the linked sites which makes me suspect that they might already once have been substituted and that there is more broken than just wiring.
But I won't give up yet. I will have to open top plate and lens to try to make all wiring new.

will keep you updated,
best regards,
Andreas

 

[Papa Smurf]

Andreas, In the the United States we have a product called "LPS". It is used to "clean" dirty electronic circuits. We used it to spray on live computer boards in our CNC machine tools. It will clean all of the gunk and corrosion of off the parts and then evaporate. Use something very absorbent to catch the gunk or it will be redeposited in a new place! Good luck with your project.

 

[johannielscom]

Cleaning out the compartment with Q-tips soaked in vinegar will get most of the battery acid residue out. In serious cases, put a piece of cotton wool soaked in vinegar in the compartment and leave it there for half an hour.

In case all else fails, look here for a complete battery compartment assembly, brand new. I bought from this seller before and he's a stand-up kinda guy. There's also a complete repair handbook on CD for sale on that auction site.

 

[kuuan]

thank you guys!!

Just now I am on a 3 day stopover in Bangkok and yesterday I had given the camera to a repair shop, I would have picked it up after 3 months when I will be back. Cameras can be services quite cheaply here, but today I decided, went back and picked it up again: I want to try to do it myself!!! If no success I can bring it back here for repair next time..

LPS...hm.. I will have to study up to know which materials else to get e.g. for cleaning, oiling the mechanics (?) asf.
Top and bottom plates can be removed quite easily, but I have not yet found out how to open the lens..

thank's Johan, the battery compartment is still ok, can be used

hope one day I can report it is working again! This really feels above all like a rescue mission, in Japan rangefinders can be had cheaply and I could have bought a working one..but how to leave such a beauty thrown in a trash box..nahh

 

[jgcraft]

Andreas, I found on a Konica C35 that the battery wire was also badly corroded at the light meter as well as at the battery compartment, so opening the top also might find yet another problem.

As far as batteries, I have either used the zinc air or just used a 1.5v battery on several other cameras and found that they exposed correctly. I just fired up a Canon FX after 10 years of non-use and the 1.5 battery worked just fine. They all looked like properly exposed negatives. With the better latitudes of modern films, I bet you cannot tell the difference. After you get it working just have a test roll developed at any Walmart for a couple of bucks and see if it needs adjusting.

Just my two cents.

George

 

[kuuan]

thank you once again everybody for your kind inputs, specially George for offering your Konica C35 for parts for free! ( see: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79994 )

finally I arrived in a house with tools 🙂 so I had a go:

opened the lens to get to the cds and it's measured resistance did change with change of light! - so it works!
opened the top plate and all there looked in a very good condition!
the very short blue wire in the bottom hardly had contact sticking out so I soldered a longer cable to it, connected both wires to the battery compartment and juhooooo, the camera now - kind of - works!:
- needle in the viewfinder changes with different light and so does the aperture on the lens!

However it seemed to me that it was underexposing by a big margin, so I compared it's measuring to that of my dSLR with same settings ( same ISO and shutter speed in shutter priority ) and found that the Konica is underexposing by as much as 5 (!) stops
inserted is a LR44 1.5 battery which is 0.2 Volt over the original battery, but I'd have not expected that it's measuring would be off by such a big margin.
Now..how to correct that?

- other than setting the ISO setting 5 steps lower than the rating of the film used, but ISO 100 and 200 films could not be set correctly since lowest ISO 25 on camera is only 2 steps below ISO 100.

read somewhere that the 1.5 Volt instead of 1.3 Volt usually may result in 2 stops underexposure. This I actually see as a good thing because though the ISO settings on the camera max is at ISO 800 one could expose an ISO 3200 film correctly setting the camera to ISO 800, and an ISO 100 film would be exposed correctly with setting the camera to ISO 25. But 5 steps underexpose would make using ISO 100 and 200 films impossible or problematic.

( and: while tinkering one spring had detached itself and fell out from the bottom, from the the far left lower part if looking at the opened bottom with the lens facing towards me. But I cannot make out any function of the release mechanism to be behaving not normal ? )

very grateful for any suggestion!

best greetings,
Andreas

 

[Papa Smurf]

found that the Konica is underexposing by as much as 5 (!) stops
inserted is a LR44 1.5 battery which is 0.2 Volt over the original battery, but I'd have not expected that it's measuring would be off by such a big margin.
Now..how to correct that?


very grateful for any suggestion!

best greetings,
Andreas

Andreas, Is the error consistent or erratic? If it is consistent, then an adjustment can be made by including less resistance in the light meter circuit. Electronic components drift with age. The higher the grade of device the less the drift, but it does occur. The CDS cell could be reading lower than designed due to age or the circuitry could be clamping too much. Use your voltmeter to take readings. A repair manual with the proper pin out voltages would be a real help here!

Somewhere I read a post by Nikon SLR user concerning using 1.5v Silver Oxcide batteries in old cameras designed for the 1.3v Mercury batteries that said that his vintage camera underexposed by 5 stops with Silver Oxcide batteries. A circuit is designed to work within a range of conditions and if they go out of parameters, all manner of errors can happen. I have a Gossen Pilot that was DOA when I received it. After cleaning 20+ years of gunk off of the inside of the lens plate, it works, but only under sunny 16 conditions. I suspect that the cell's output is no longer linear and, maybe, the meter coil or the meter spring has changed its resistance over the years. Old is nostalgic but not necessarily good as new. You may have to be satisfied with your camera sorta' working sometimes and be proud that you where able to achieve that level of results.

 

[kuuan]

thank you so much for your concern and input Papa Smurf!

The error looks consistent to me.
Could you please be so kind and elaborate what you meant by: 'including less resistance in the light meter circuit.'?

I am planning to get a Schottky Diode ( hopefully can get within the next few days ) to lower the voltage as suggested for the batterie adapter in the document linked above ( http://rick_oleson.tripod.com/batt_adapt_us.pdf )
However I do not need to make an adapter, the battery compartment is of the right size, but I plan to solder the diode directly into the camera.
Not sure yet how a diode must be used, but as much as I understand it's anode should be in series after the + of the battery. True? Maybe someone can confirm / correct, or else I just will try anyway, and hopefully soon will report resulting better measuring of the camera

best greetings,
Andreas

 

[mwoenv]

Battery Replacement

Battery Replacement

I am very happy with the battery converter sold by www.camera-care.com for $20 which uses inexpensive 1.5 v hearing aid zinc-air batteries (comes with 2 675 batteries). It provides 1.35 volts and I use it in my Konica Auto S2 and Minolta SRT 201, and the meters match my other cameras.

 

[kuuan]

thank you mwoenv, may look into making or buying the battery adapter.
First however I will try to simply solder a diode right into the camera, I had opened the camera a few times to solder the battery compartment anyway, so this will be very easy.
It prefer this solution because there will be no adapter to take care of, only the battery itself to be inserted in the camera, and it is cheaper ( ok ok, 10 or 20 USD for an adapter are just peanuts, but nevertheless it will make me happy to make this camera work as cheaply as possible by myself - a diode costs under 1 USD and I will try to get it over the counter, not paying for shipping )

 

[Papa Smurf]

.......

The error looks consistent to me.
Could you please be so kind and elaborate what you meant by: 'including less resistance in the light meter circuit.'?

I am planning to get a Schottky Diode ( hopefully can get within the next few days ) to lower the voltage as suggested for the batterie adapter in the document linked above ( http://rick_oleson.tripod.com/batt_adapt_us.pdf )
However I do not need to make an adapter, the battery compartment is of the right size, but I plan to solder the diode directly into the camera.
Not sure yet how a diode must be used, but as much as I understand it's anode should be in series after the + of the battery. True? Maybe someone can confirm / correct, or else I just will try anyway, and hopefully soon will report resulting better measuring of the camera

best greetings,
Andreas

"By less resistance" I meant to look for a resistor in the light meter circuit. It might be a variable resistor and if there is one then, maybe it has gone off the chart with age and needs replaced. If there isn't one, then maybe the meter coil has changed resistance by some of the insulation breaking done and letting the current short circuit inside the coil causing the coil to be weak. A new meter coil is probably your only recourse. After further thought, maybe I am wrong about less resistance. Not being there means that I can not see your reading. You have to figure out if the meter is reading low or high.

Most diodes pass current in only one direction, there are some that "break down" at a specific voltage and allow current to flow in the reverse direction as in a voltage regulating circuit. The Schottky diode allows current to pass with a specific voltage drop as in 0.2v to drop from 1.5v to 1.3v. The diodes recommended in the article that you mention reduce the voltage of the silver oxide battery to match the original Mercury cell voltage of 1.35v.

This is not my best writing, but it is late and I am tired and I do not know when I can get back to RFF. 🙁

 

[kuuan]

thank you again Papa Smurf.

now the diode is soldered into the camera, to reduce voltage it's anode must be soldered to the + of the batterie in series as I had thought.

Now Voltage is a measured...1.35 Volt! yes, it's exactly where it should be, in use a LR44 1.5 Volt Batterie and a 'BAT 41' Schottky Diode.

Comparing the aperture chosen with identical settings to those of two other cameras it seems to me that it still is underexposing but now only by 2 stops. It looks like there also has been some change in resistor value of the coil or a changeable resistor as you guesses papa Smurf, but if it underexposes only 2 stops that will do, 2 stops easily can be corrected by the ISO setting on the camera.

- so now that this thread has become a 'progress report' on the repair / rescue of my little Konica I hope that soon I will shoot the first film and can show some results here as well.

thank you very much everybody,
Andreas

 

[Papa Smurf]

.............
- so now that this thread has become a 'progress report' on the repair / rescue of my little Konica I hope that soon I will shoot the first film and can show some results here as well.

thank you very much everybody,
Andreas

Wow! I am smiling 🙂 as this has been a very gratifying experience. What, 4 or 5 people from just about every part of the World contributed to this victory. How cool is that? Best regards to you Andreas and happy snapping with your "new" camera.

 

[kuuan]

Hihi, yes papa Smurf, it has been a pleasure!
thank you so very much specially Papa Smurf and the others for your replies and suggestions, it was the right encouragement I had needed!

Now I am proud that I had rescued this little great camera from a trash pin. Considering that this was in a shop specializing in used photo gear which has it's own repair shop I am amazed that nothing more but 2 wire connections had been broken.

The camera had cost me 3.50 Euro, the diode 0.50, total bill 4 Euro
just did the lightseals, now ready to shoot 🙂
here it is:

best regards,
Andreas

 

[djamorpheus]

Hey, sorry to revive an old thread, but how did you solder the diode in the battery compartment? I have a konica c35 that under exposes even with zinc air batteries.