rfaspen
[insert pithy phrase here]
OK. I've purchased only a few items from ebay over the last 15-20 years. Literally, only about 5 things. This (below) is the last item I bought....an Elmarit 90/2.8. I was casually looking to get one after a friend raved about his (and rightly so). I checked RFF and a few other reliable sources for one, but I couldn't find one. So, I took a peek at the bay.
I found this lens offered for a reasonable price (about $300-ish) and the seller had truly glowing reviews from other folks who bought a Summaron 35/2.8, Elmar 50/2.8, and M3 from him (among other things). The item photos didn't have a particularly good "through the lens" shot, but the objective surface looked fantastic (and it is) and the other folks who were just thrilled with their items from this seller won me over. Sure, it was "only" $300+ but I'm not a wealthy man and I do think before making a purchase. Did I mention this was only my 5th or 6th ebay purchase in 15-20 years?
So, of my last 5 ebay purchases, I have been burned 4 times (I won't torture you with the details). I must be a slow learner. Here is my 6th purchase from ebay. Tell me how I did....
Yep. Two different views of the same lens from the front. Two enormous blemishes on opposite sides. Wow. either I'm a complete ebay idiot or I have bad luck with that particular site. I should mention that I've bought (and sold, but mostly bought) countless items from RFF, FM, getDPI, APUG, and other sources. All with great, sometimes amazing, experiences. Only ebay does this to me. Sure, many of you will say, "you should have asked for a "through the lens" image before buying". I suppose I should have. The seller stated that "there is dust when shining a light through the lens". OK, dust, and even haze, are things I expect and can live with, but MASSIVE separation? The other folks who bought this guy's lenses were "thrilled", and honestly from their feedback you can just feel the thumping happy warm vibes they wish to send the seller. So, I figured this lens would be like his others. NOT!
What would y'all do now? Send a mean (and deservedly so) message to the seller indicating you're sending this lens back for a full refund? Would you send it to a lens repair shop (who? YY?, focal point? DAG?) and eat some extra $$. The lens is fine (but not certainly not mint) in all other respects. Would you try to repair it yourself? I mean, I only forked out ~ $320 and I'm fairly competent with repairs when I know what I'm doing, but I don't know anything about repairing separation. I've been interested in doing that with lenses I know were "glued" with Canada balsam -- involves placing the lens group in the oven perfectly level. I have the equipment to assure things are perfectly level within a ridiculous tolerance (and an oven when the wife is at work
). Then again, I should I have received such a monster for $320?
Thanks for reading the rant. BTW, I have now learned my lesson; at an 84% failure rate, I'm done with ebay... Forever. Honest, I'm done. RFF classifieds have been my best source for great gear from great people. 100% success rate and pleasant. Why did I ever look at that evil site?
I found this lens offered for a reasonable price (about $300-ish) and the seller had truly glowing reviews from other folks who bought a Summaron 35/2.8, Elmar 50/2.8, and M3 from him (among other things). The item photos didn't have a particularly good "through the lens" shot, but the objective surface looked fantastic (and it is) and the other folks who were just thrilled with their items from this seller won me over. Sure, it was "only" $300+ but I'm not a wealthy man and I do think before making a purchase. Did I mention this was only my 5th or 6th ebay purchase in 15-20 years?
So, of my last 5 ebay purchases, I have been burned 4 times (I won't torture you with the details). I must be a slow learner. Here is my 6th purchase from ebay. Tell me how I did....
Yep. Two different views of the same lens from the front. Two enormous blemishes on opposite sides. Wow. either I'm a complete ebay idiot or I have bad luck with that particular site. I should mention that I've bought (and sold, but mostly bought) countless items from RFF, FM, getDPI, APUG, and other sources. All with great, sometimes amazing, experiences. Only ebay does this to me. Sure, many of you will say, "you should have asked for a "through the lens" image before buying". I suppose I should have. The seller stated that "there is dust when shining a light through the lens". OK, dust, and even haze, are things I expect and can live with, but MASSIVE separation? The other folks who bought this guy's lenses were "thrilled", and honestly from their feedback you can just feel the thumping happy warm vibes they wish to send the seller. So, I figured this lens would be like his others. NOT!
What would y'all do now? Send a mean (and deservedly so) message to the seller indicating you're sending this lens back for a full refund? Would you send it to a lens repair shop (who? YY?, focal point? DAG?) and eat some extra $$. The lens is fine (but not certainly not mint) in all other respects. Would you try to repair it yourself? I mean, I only forked out ~ $320 and I'm fairly competent with repairs when I know what I'm doing, but I don't know anything about repairing separation. I've been interested in doing that with lenses I know were "glued" with Canada balsam -- involves placing the lens group in the oven perfectly level. I have the equipment to assure things are perfectly level within a ridiculous tolerance (and an oven when the wife is at work
). Then again, I should I have received such a monster for $320? Thanks for reading the rant. BTW, I have now learned my lesson; at an 84% failure rate, I'm done with ebay... Forever. Honest, I'm done. RFF classifieds have been my best source for great gear from great people. 100% success rate and pleasant. Why did I ever look at that evil site?
maddoc
... likes film again.
I have tried the "oven cure" with my old Summitar a couple of times (laboratory equipment) and ended up with some air bubbles between the glued elements ... :bang:
If receiving such a lens as in your photos I would return it for a full refund. Indeed, this is what I had to to a couple of times in the past, receiving similar "mint" or "excellent" described lenses...
If receiving such a lens as in your photos I would return it for a full refund. Indeed, this is what I had to to a couple of times in the past, receiving similar "mint" or "excellent" described lenses...
michaelwj
----------------
Here's what I'd do.
1. Contact seller, saying politely that it was not as described and you will be returning it for a full refund. Repairing it and asking them to pay for it is fraught with difficulty. You shouldn't have to eat the $.
2. Lodge a claim with ebay.
3. Lodge a claim with paypal (you did pay with paypal right?)
4. Don't try to fix it yourself.
5. Good luck. It'll be fine. Ebay can't have this happen all the time or it will be too bad for business. Don't give up on getting it resolved.
Cheers,
Michael
1. Contact seller, saying politely that it was not as described and you will be returning it for a full refund. Repairing it and asking them to pay for it is fraught with difficulty. You shouldn't have to eat the $.
2. Lodge a claim with ebay.
3. Lodge a claim with paypal (you did pay with paypal right?)
4. Don't try to fix it yourself.
5. Good luck. It'll be fine. Ebay can't have this happen all the time or it will be too bad for business. Don't give up on getting it resolved.
Cheers,
Michael
dogberryjr
[Pithy phrase]
Have you taken any photos with it? I'm always surprised at the images that come from hideous lenses.
Ranchu
Veteran
Wait, wait, wait. Was the lens sold as is, as in did it say as is in the listing? If not just click more actions>return this item>item not as described>print label (it'll give you a png which you can save as to print later). With the label, return shipping is paid. Simple.
YYV_146
Well-known
Hmmm...I might be in the minority here, but so far I've made a huge amount of gear and other purchases on the Bay, more than $15,000 in the past three years, and I've never had a single issue.
An unwillingness to show a picture through the lens is a red flag for me. People who list as buy-it-now at below normal prices is also a red flag. Don't touch the shady deals and you won't be burned...at least I haven't. I also see everything I sell through and have a feedback of 100%.
With regard to the lens, I would write a somewhat strongly worded message to the seller demanding a full refund. This goes beyond misdescription and borderlines fraudulent advertising, and you shouldn't take any responsibility for that.
An unwillingness to show a picture through the lens is a red flag for me. People who list as buy-it-now at below normal prices is also a red flag. Don't touch the shady deals and you won't be burned...at least I haven't. I also see everything I sell through and have a feedback of 100%.
With regard to the lens, I would write a somewhat strongly worded message to the seller demanding a full refund. This goes beyond misdescription and borderlines fraudulent advertising, and you shouldn't take any responsibility for that.
rfaspen
[insert pithy phrase here]
Thanks all for the advice. The lens was not sold "as is" and the seller didn't refuse to show a "through the lens" shot, but rather I relied on an inadequate image that was too dark on the other end to show the deficits. The price is low-ish for a nice elmarit, but not so low as to raise red flags. Its a higher price than I considered just a year ago for a known nice example. I just figured honesty was in the air because the other buyers (other lenses) were so darned happy and had such glowing things to say about their items. My other ebay experiences (the bad ones anyway) have ranged from "maybe I should have known better" to "complete scum seller". I'm just unlucky here. I know others have had better experiences.
I plan to return for refund. As politely, but determinedly as possible. Hopefully all will be fine in the end. I just had to post about this because I have never held a lens with such extensive separation before, and I was obviously expecting something different
I plan to return for refund. As politely, but determinedly as possible. Hopefully all will be fine in the end. I just had to post about this because I have never held a lens with such extensive separation before, and I was obviously expecting something different
Huss
Veteran
Before you send it back send the photos showing the lens separation. I've done this before and it is really helpful as ebay keeps track of those when/if you file a issue. It validates your claim.
I've bought quite an amount of stuff (I'm ashamed to admit) from ebay over the last few years and have had about an 80% success rate. Where I will no longer buy from is places like Japan (high humidity areas) as no matter what the ad claims, every time I have received lenses/cameras with fungus and the seller acts surprised..
I've bought quite an amount of stuff (I'm ashamed to admit) from ebay over the last few years and have had about an 80% success rate. Where I will no longer buy from is places like Japan (high humidity areas) as no matter what the ad claims, every time I have received lenses/cameras with fungus and the seller acts surprised..
Godfrey
somewhat colored
Absolutely yes, but defer lodging claims with eBay and paypal until you have difficulty with the seller. I mean, if the seller has a good rating, just send the note to say the item is not as described and request the procedure for return to obtain a full refund.
I've bought and sold hundreds of things using eBay over the past 15 years. I've had to return stuff from time to time. It's not been a problem at all. The vast majority of sellers are normal, sensible, honest people just like you and me.
G
Pioneer
Veteran
My wife and I have been with ebay for a very long time and typically we have a pretty good success rate. Your hit rate is pretty poor and it will likely be in your best interest to discontinue any further excursions in the bay. Do go through the return process, it likely will turn out just fine for you.
I do have to say though, I have experienced more misrepresented gear in the past year than at any time in the past. Rolleiflexes with seriously out of alignment focus, fixed lens cameras with fungus so bad I could swear it was furry, beautiful looking lenses without any aperture blades, and everyone of them glowingly described by their sellers and quite expertly photographed in ways that effectively masked any deficiency. In every case identified above the sellers had glowing recommendations in their feedback with very high feedback scores from hundred if not thousands of buyers.
In only one case did I have to go to extraordinary measures to get my refund, but the damage is still being done. I am becoming very tired of all the dishonesty, and am very close to closing my long term relationship with ebay. Though I get my refunds I am forced to go through a lot of time and effort with sellers who were blatantly dishonest in the first place.
In the past I would have clearly indicated what had happened through my feedback. But Ebay has now aborted that system that was one of the things that attracted me to this site in the first place. I can no longer fairly represent this dishonesty in the feedback process. If I attempt to rate the seller at anything less than "wonderful" ebay immediately re-routes me into a convoluted negotiation process with the seller where I am to come to an agreement and work things out.
I don't want to work it out. I want to tell people that the seller is being dishonest in the first place. Oh sure, after the fact they return the money and accept the product back, but the entire process would never have happened at all if they had been upfront in the first place. In the past there were dishonest sellers, but their feedback rating reflected that dishonesty. Now everyone is wonderful, sellers and buyers.
I do have to say though, I have experienced more misrepresented gear in the past year than at any time in the past. Rolleiflexes with seriously out of alignment focus, fixed lens cameras with fungus so bad I could swear it was furry, beautiful looking lenses without any aperture blades, and everyone of them glowingly described by their sellers and quite expertly photographed in ways that effectively masked any deficiency. In every case identified above the sellers had glowing recommendations in their feedback with very high feedback scores from hundred if not thousands of buyers.
In only one case did I have to go to extraordinary measures to get my refund, but the damage is still being done. I am becoming very tired of all the dishonesty, and am very close to closing my long term relationship with ebay. Though I get my refunds I am forced to go through a lot of time and effort with sellers who were blatantly dishonest in the first place.
In the past I would have clearly indicated what had happened through my feedback. But Ebay has now aborted that system that was one of the things that attracted me to this site in the first place. I can no longer fairly represent this dishonesty in the feedback process. If I attempt to rate the seller at anything less than "wonderful" ebay immediately re-routes me into a convoluted negotiation process with the seller where I am to come to an agreement and work things out.
I don't want to work it out. I want to tell people that the seller is being dishonest in the first place. Oh sure, after the fact they return the money and accept the product back, but the entire process would never have happened at all if they had been upfront in the first place. In the past there were dishonest sellers, but their feedback rating reflected that dishonesty. Now everyone is wonderful, sellers and buyers.
SolaresLarrave
My M5s need red dots!
+1 with Godfrey. Contact the seller first, and if things go well... then you are lucky. If the seller does not reply to the first or second message... then take the "mean" way and file a claim. If the seller has only good feedback and is so widely praised, I doubt s/he will ignore your message.
All in all, sorry about your experience. I've been thinking about swinging for a Tele-Elmarit myself (I had one and sold it... no need to bore you with the story, but it's the sale I regretted ever since I wrote the ad). I will be careful at reading ads now, and will pay attention whether the seller takes returns.
Best of luck!
All in all, sorry about your experience. I've been thinking about swinging for a Tele-Elmarit myself (I had one and sold it... no need to bore you with the story, but it's the sale I regretted ever since I wrote the ad). I will be careful at reading ads now, and will pay attention whether the seller takes returns.
Best of luck!
Corran
Well-known
Just return it, sheesh, they have to take it back per eBay's guidelines regarding "not as described." It's really not a big deal - other than a bit of wasted time/effort but what can you do?
Personally I have bought at least several hundred lenses/cameras/etc. from eBay, and sold over a hundred items minimum, with very few problems. My main beef is with Paypal and their policies...
To make you feel a little better - when I finally decided to plop down the money for an M9, I found a nice good condition one on eBay for $3500. I bought it. Sent the money. Got a nice reply saying it would be shipped within a day or two. And then.....nothing. Long story short, I had to wait a MONTH for my money to be refunded. I honestly think the guy must've gotten in a car wreck or maybe some other medical issue because he had plenty of activity leading up and suddenly nothing. No response, no nothing, ever. I was never worried I was "out" $3500 because I know eBay's policies.
Personally I have bought at least several hundred lenses/cameras/etc. from eBay, and sold over a hundred items minimum, with very few problems. My main beef is with Paypal and their policies...
To make you feel a little better - when I finally decided to plop down the money for an M9, I found a nice good condition one on eBay for $3500. I bought it. Sent the money. Got a nice reply saying it would be shipped within a day or two. And then.....nothing. Long story short, I had to wait a MONTH for my money to be refunded. I honestly think the guy must've gotten in a car wreck or maybe some other medical issue because he had plenty of activity leading up and suddenly nothing. No response, no nothing, ever. I was never worried I was "out" $3500 because I know eBay's policies.
kuzano
Veteran
Godfrey is "on the money" on his advice.
Godfrey is "on the money" on his advice.
No good eBayer wants to involve eBay in the solution to these problems. As a fellow long time, high count eBay seller/buyer and teaching an eBay class at Community Education, Work it out with the Seller.
If he has the feedback you say he has, and particularly he has 100% positive feedback, his highest motivation is to preserve that %100 percent satisfaction guarantee.
Only involve eBay as a last resort. You have latitude to do that.
First contact should be the seller and a simple request to unwind the deal.
I have little patience with buyers that jump the gun and contact eBay before they know the response from the seller. Good Sellers want good deals. No seller is perfect, so good deals 100% of the time means a responsible approach to fixing potentially bad deals.
Give the Seller a chance to work it out to your satisfaction.
I have one hard fast rule. If a buyer is not satisfied and wants to negotiate a deal, I do NOT negotiate.... The only fix is that I buy the item back, at the first hint of a problem. However, I do expect that the buyer will give me as good a feedback, as if he/she were 100% happy. A buy back is a good deal, particularly with no assistance from eBay.
Buyer/seller expectations of condition rarely mesh, but fixing the deal is important and punishing with bad feedback is unnecessary... Not that I'm saying you intend to do that.
A good seller works his ass off to gather good feedback, and makes concessions to keep the record clean.
Godfrey is "on the money" on his advice.
No good eBayer wants to involve eBay in the solution to these problems. As a fellow long time, high count eBay seller/buyer and teaching an eBay class at Community Education, Work it out with the Seller.
If he has the feedback you say he has, and particularly he has 100% positive feedback, his highest motivation is to preserve that %100 percent satisfaction guarantee.
Only involve eBay as a last resort. You have latitude to do that.
First contact should be the seller and a simple request to unwind the deal.
I have little patience with buyers that jump the gun and contact eBay before they know the response from the seller. Good Sellers want good deals. No seller is perfect, so good deals 100% of the time means a responsible approach to fixing potentially bad deals.
Give the Seller a chance to work it out to your satisfaction.
I have one hard fast rule. If a buyer is not satisfied and wants to negotiate a deal, I do NOT negotiate.... The only fix is that I buy the item back, at the first hint of a problem. However, I do expect that the buyer will give me as good a feedback, as if he/she were 100% happy. A buy back is a good deal, particularly with no assistance from eBay.
Buyer/seller expectations of condition rarely mesh, but fixing the deal is important and punishing with bad feedback is unnecessary... Not that I'm saying you intend to do that.
A good seller works his ass off to gather good feedback, and makes concessions to keep the record clean.
rfaspen
[insert pithy phrase here]
OK folks. I appreciate all the good responses here.
Just wrote a very amicable note to the seller to see if we can "unwind" the transaction. I like to be a respectful, considerate buyer (and everything else) and truly wish to avoid conflict, confrontation, or "meanness" of any kind. Just not my nature. Could it be this seller didn't know what extensive separation looked like? I suppose. At any rate, none of this is worth raising my already high blood pressure. I will not lose the house at the money we're dealing with here. I just wanted to get a 90mm of a certain character....I guess I got that?
Just wrote a very amicable note to the seller to see if we can "unwind" the transaction. I like to be a respectful, considerate buyer (and everything else) and truly wish to avoid conflict, confrontation, or "meanness" of any kind. Just not my nature. Could it be this seller didn't know what extensive separation looked like? I suppose. At any rate, none of this is worth raising my already high blood pressure. I will not lose the house at the money we're dealing with here. I just wanted to get a 90mm of a certain character....I guess I got that?
rfaspen
[insert pithy phrase here]
Well, the story doesn't end well. The somewhat rude seller pointed out an "all sales final, no returns" and "I'm not a lens expert" clause down at the bottom of their listing. I did miss that, but it there it is.
Still, it's not enough to go by item description, feedback, and specific comments, and photos of the item. The lens was conveniently photographed to avoid showing the separation, and this glaring deficit was just as conveniently left out of the item description. A dishonest seller that took me for a ride. Not to mention the fact that the lens was shipped loose with a few styrofoam peanuts in the box. I can only imagine the impact damage as it rolled around in the box during typical rough handling (not faulting the USPS here).
So, shame on me for not scouring the entire ad for the "fine print". I admit I tend to be naive and trusting. I first used ebay during the mid-late 1990's and the environment was much more honest. Over time, my ebay experiences have become less satisfying. I just don't have the wherewithall to navigate all the dishonesty anymore. Especially now that we have RFF classifieds.
And now at least I have a 90/2.8 paperweight!
Still, it's not enough to go by item description, feedback, and specific comments, and photos of the item. The lens was conveniently photographed to avoid showing the separation, and this glaring deficit was just as conveniently left out of the item description. A dishonest seller that took me for a ride. Not to mention the fact that the lens was shipped loose with a few styrofoam peanuts in the box. I can only imagine the impact damage as it rolled around in the box during typical rough handling (not faulting the USPS here).
So, shame on me for not scouring the entire ad for the "fine print". I admit I tend to be naive and trusting. I first used ebay during the mid-late 1990's and the environment was much more honest. Over time, my ebay experiences have become less satisfying. I just don't have the wherewithall to navigate all the dishonesty anymore. Especially now that we have RFF classifieds.
And now at least I have a 90/2.8 paperweight!
Roger Hicks
Veteran
What would I do? I'd take the hint...
Stories like yours are why I have never bought or sold anything on EB. Either way, you're at the mercy of professional swindlers, as you have now learned four times.
The lens is likely to be very little use, even if it is amazing what good results you can get with chewed-up lenses under ideal conditions with a deep enough lens shade. Even so, try it. You might just get a "magic" result that becomes your signature for portraits.
Cheers,
R.
Stories like yours are why I have never bought or sold anything on EB. Either way, you're at the mercy of professional swindlers, as you have now learned four times.
The lens is likely to be very little use, even if it is amazing what good results you can get with chewed-up lenses under ideal conditions with a deep enough lens shade. Even so, try it. You might just get a "magic" result that becomes your signature for portraits.
Cheers,
R.
rybolt
Well-known
Wait a minute. Back up. You did what was the right thing in giving the seller a chance to make it right. Now is where you escalate the problem to Ebay and Paypal. Just because a seller says all sales are final doesn't mean you have no recourse. especially in a situation where it was so obviously mis-represented in the listing. Now is when you file a claim with Ebay. They will immediately put the transaction on hold and debit the seller's Paypal account. If the seller doesn't have funds in the account his account will be frozen until he gets the money into the account. You have every right to do this and you should not feel any guilt about doing it.
As of this morning I have 1008 positive feedbacks on Ebay and no neutral or negatives. 90% of those are from sales. I've made errors in listings and only a few times have Ebay needed to get involved. This is one of those times for you to reach out to them and let them settle this for you.
As of this morning I have 1008 positive feedbacks on Ebay and no neutral or negatives. 90% of those are from sales. I've made errors in listings and only a few times have Ebay needed to get involved. This is one of those times for you to reach out to them and let them settle this for you.
zuikologist
.........................
Rybolt is right, this is one time where ebay buyer policies should work in your favour.
VertovSvilova
Well-known
Why do you feel you have a paperweight? Just file a claim with eBay and Paypal (now that you've politely contacted the seller and they aren't going to accept a return; you've done your part.) These days eBay/PayPal are on the side of the buyer, and you can claim the item as not properly described, etc.. And you were not confrontational with the seller, etc.. The ball is in your court. It's up to you to decide if you want to make the claim, but the seller could have easily described the lens better despite claiming not to be a 'lens expert' (he clearly has been selling lenses-- you mentioned other buyers reporting excellent feedback on lens purchases from him.)
re: using eBay: imho, one has to do their homework and use intuition when buying. And not only used items on eBay but used (and even new) anywhere. I don't think anything has changed (people got ripped off in ancient Rome, too) but just that there are more and easier venues for dishonest people. And an increase in stuff for sale everywhere (and bigger population, etc..) just increases the odds of dishonesty/lack of ethics, too.
I've had pretty good luck with buying on eBay, but I do take a lot of time and background checking and use my 'gut feelings' about a seller (their address, they way they write their ad copy, the images, etc., etc..) I've contacted every buyer first before I make a bid or hit 'buy it now.' It's more work but I tell myself it's just being diligent. After all, it's an open bazaar out there (not just eBay.) And of course there's always the option of just using reputable and established vendors outside of eBay (although unique items are indeed easier to find on eBay.)
Anyway, I would file a claim if you were expecting a useable lens.
Ranchu
Veteran
It has to say "as is", "sales final no returns" has nothing to do with condition, whether the item is as described or not. Seller is trying to snow you, he/she has to take it back if it is not as described and the listing doesn't say it's sold as is.
Do what I said above, seller will pay for return shipping (no reason you should have to pay it) and you'll get your money back as long as it's sent back with the label.
Do what I said above, seller will pay for return shipping (no reason you should have to pay it) and you'll get your money back as long as it's sent back with the label.