Corran
Well-known
Wrong wrong wrong. eBay WILL take the money from the seller. This is a no-brainer. It's infuriating that you would tell the OP this, when you have no idea about the processes involved.
michaelwj
----------------
Well, the story doesn't end well. The somewhat rude seller pointed out an "all sales final, no returns" and "I'm not a lens expert" clause down at the bottom of their listing. I did miss that, but it there it is.
Still, it's not enough to go by item description, feedback, and specific comments, and photos of the item. The lens was conveniently photographed to avoid showing the separation, and this glaring deficit was just as conveniently left out of the item description. A dishonest seller that took me for a ride. Not to mention the fact that the lens was shipped loose with a few styrofoam peanuts in the box. I can only imagine the impact damage as it rolled around in the box during typical rough handling (not faulting the USPS here).
So, shame on me for not scouring the entire ad for the "fine print". I admit I tend to be naive and trusting. I first used ebay during the mid-late 1990's and the environment was much more honest. Over time, my ebay experiences have become less satisfying. I just don't have the wherewithall to navigate all the dishonesty anymore. Especially now that we have RFF classifieds.
And now at least I have a 90/2.8 paperweight!
Like others have said, escalate it to a claim with ebay.
You're not at fault, don't act like it. You were sold something that was not as described. We can take this to the ridiculous if you want - if you bid on a noctilux at 10k and were shipped a $200 elmar would you just say "dang, I should've read the fine print"? Didn't think so. Don't let them get away with it.
Michael
enasniearth
Well-known
90
90
From the photos the lens does have an optical problem seperation is the most likely candidate .
You need to file a claim , make the photos part of the claim .
It really helps if you call Paypal and talk to a real human being .
Unless the listing condition is for parts or repair , if it is anything else then
Paypal will lodge the complaint.
Paypal will help you through the process .
Look at the condition the seller has selected on ebay .
Most sellers will not list an items condition as for parts or repair .
As quoted from Paypal " without buyers there are no sellers , the seller can always relist the item "
In 15 years I have had 2 returns , both were resold to happy buyers , noteing the previous buyers complaint in the ad .
90
From the photos the lens does have an optical problem seperation is the most likely candidate .
You need to file a claim , make the photos part of the claim .
It really helps if you call Paypal and talk to a real human being .
Unless the listing condition is for parts or repair , if it is anything else then
Paypal will lodge the complaint.
Paypal will help you through the process .
Look at the condition the seller has selected on ebay .
Most sellers will not list an items condition as for parts or repair .
As quoted from Paypal " without buyers there are no sellers , the seller can always relist the item "
In 15 years I have had 2 returns , both were resold to happy buyers , noteing the previous buyers complaint in the ad .
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
You are going to be fine.
Try at least twice with polite reasonable requests for return. Do this through eBay messaging system, so they are logged and visible to eBay. Say why.
After that, you are covered by eBay's guarantee. Right in the listing. Start the eBay process to unwind the transaction.
There has been a lot of complaining here about how eBay protects the buyer, sometimes to the disadvantage of the seller. In this case, you'll benefit from that policy.
I've bought a hundred or so items on eBay with 95%+ success. The eBay return guarantee has helped me a few times.
"Keep calm and carry on" ... right for this situation.
Try at least twice with polite reasonable requests for return. Do this through eBay messaging system, so they are logged and visible to eBay. Say why.
After that, you are covered by eBay's guarantee. Right in the listing. Start the eBay process to unwind the transaction.
There has been a lot of complaining here about how eBay protects the buyer, sometimes to the disadvantage of the seller. In this case, you'll benefit from that policy.
I've bought a hundred or so items on eBay with 95%+ success. The eBay return guarantee has helped me a few times.
"Keep calm and carry on" ... right for this situation.
Ranchu
Veteran
Do not call ebay and talk to anyone, don't waste any more of your time. Use the automated process. That's what it's for, they don't want to talk to you.
Timmyjoe
Veteran
This stuff happens on eBay, which makes eBay kind of a PITA to deal with.
Last week I got a lens that looked perfect in the pictures. And the seller listed the item as "No Returns". When I got it and took it out of the box, removed front and rear cap, I noticed immediately that there was something on the rear element. Hoping for a piece of dust I took a look at it with a loupe. Sure enough, chip in the rear element.
I immediately photographed the chip and sent the picture to the seller, saying I would be returning the lens. He balked, telling me I really ought to shoot with it first and that the chip wouldn't ever show up in any pictures taken with the lens.
So I set up a shot where I knew the chip would flare the light and sent it to him. I returned the lens and just got my PayPal account refunded.
I would definitely escalate if the seller refuses a refund. Ebay is much more buyer friendly these days.
Best,
-Tim
Last week I got a lens that looked perfect in the pictures. And the seller listed the item as "No Returns". When I got it and took it out of the box, removed front and rear cap, I noticed immediately that there was something on the rear element. Hoping for a piece of dust I took a look at it with a loupe. Sure enough, chip in the rear element.
I immediately photographed the chip and sent the picture to the seller, saying I would be returning the lens. He balked, telling me I really ought to shoot with it first and that the chip wouldn't ever show up in any pictures taken with the lens.
So I set up a shot where I knew the chip would flare the light and sent it to him. I returned the lens and just got my PayPal account refunded.
I would definitely escalate if the seller refuses a refund. Ebay is much more buyer friendly these days.
Best,
-Tim
enasniearth
Well-known
You are right they don't want to talk to you , I would call Paypal not ebay that is where the money is .
Until you talk with someone they think you and the buyer/seller are working together to resolve the problem .
Sure the automated process works /
Didn't you start a thread about ebay threatening buyers who made use of the automated process , what they thought was too many times .
To the original poster - you have tried in good faith to resolve the issue with the seller , it is time to escalate the dispute to a claim . Sure this is not where you wanted this to go .
I don't think you are being unreasonable , you just want the lens the seller described in the ad . The seller does not have the lens that was described in the ad , only the one he sent .
Ranchu
Veteran
No I did not. Ebay has never said a negative thing to me.
Do not 'talk to paypal', there is no reason to talk to anyone, it will only expose you to risk. You might say the wrong thing, you might misunderstand something and agree, you might get someone on the phone who just doesn't like your accent. Funny how it keeps getting suggested.
Do not 'talk to paypal', there is no reason to talk to anyone, it will only expose you to risk. You might say the wrong thing, you might misunderstand something and agree, you might get someone on the phone who just doesn't like your accent. Funny how it keeps getting suggested.
Fixcinater
Never enough smoky peat
Devil's advocate thought given what you (OP) said about the poor packaging: Maybe the packed box with the lens inside was given a drop/shock somewhere along the shipping route and it separated there.
You don't know for a fact that it left his house the exact same way you received it in, so maybe he listed and described and photographed it accurately.
Not saying for sure that is the case, but you can't very well rule it out.
You don't know for a fact that it left his house the exact same way you received it in, so maybe he listed and described and photographed it accurately.
Not saying for sure that is the case, but you can't very well rule it out.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
How does this negate what I said? The fact that eBay offers time-consuming remedies against professional swindlers does not negate the fact that they exist.
Cheers,
R.
rybolt
Well-known
The number of legitimate, concerned, honest and trustworthy sellers on Ebay far outweigh the bozos out for a quick buck by scamming a buyer.
If you don't want to buy on Ebay that's great. There are many more positive transactions than there are negative transactions.
As a longtime seller and buyer I am completely in favor of Ebay's method of dealing with unscrupulous sellers even though it does leave me open to being taken advantage of by an unscrupulous buyer.
If you don't want to buy on Ebay that's great. There are many more positive transactions than there are negative transactions.
As a longtime seller and buyer I am completely in favor of Ebay's method of dealing with unscrupulous sellers even though it does leave me open to being taken advantage of by an unscrupulous buyer.
Corran
Well-known
They are not time-consuming, and you can only "swindle" somebody if they keep the money.
This "problem" with the lens will literally take 15 minutes to fix through the eBay claim system. The photos of the damage are already done! Even if it was damaged in shipping, it's the seller's problem - hope he got insurance then.
The reason there are very few people trying to scam people on eBay with junk items is because they know they won't win a claim.
Clark.EE
Well-known
Call Ebay.
I always call them before I make a claim/reply to a claim against me.
They will tell you what they will do having looked at listing, evidence from both sides etc. etc.
Or at least they do in the UK.
Sounds "Significantly not as described to me"
Which, I think! trumps his " no returns " stuff.
What did it say under "item condition" right at the top of the listing?
If it said "Used" not "Spares repair" you are fine I presume?
I always call them before I make a claim/reply to a claim against me.
They will tell you what they will do having looked at listing, evidence from both sides etc. etc.
Or at least they do in the UK.
Sounds "Significantly not as described to me"
Which, I think! trumps his " no returns " stuff.
What did it say under "item condition" right at the top of the listing?
If it said "Used" not "Spares repair" you are fine I presume?
hendriphile
Well-known
*bay, for all its faults, does favor the buyer and with your documentation you should have no major headaches getting a refund once you get them involved.
FWIW, I've given up ordering things from the Orient as their definition of "mint" has proven suspect.
FWIW, I've given up ordering things from the Orient as their definition of "mint" has proven suspect.
uhoh7
Veteran
Either the lens is as described or not. You have the evidence. It's no problem. Return or get partial refund.
I've asked for a number of partial refunds on lens which were still usable, and never been turned down once I explained the issue.
I do often get lenses from eBay which do not meet the description. So far they have all been usable, and ended up being great deals, after I worked with the sellers.
Ebay sellers don't want negative comments. Besides that, paypal says the item must meet description.
In your case, I would return the lens. Might cost you shipping.
Who claimed finding great lenses at great price was easy.
I've sent more KEH stuff back than Ebay stuff, but that's because there's no negotiating with KEH. Take it or return it.
I've asked for a number of partial refunds on lens which were still usable, and never been turned down once I explained the issue.
I do often get lenses from eBay which do not meet the description. So far they have all been usable, and ended up being great deals, after I worked with the sellers.
Ebay sellers don't want negative comments. Besides that, paypal says the item must meet description.
In your case, I would return the lens. Might cost you shipping.
Who claimed finding great lenses at great price was easy.
I've sent more KEH stuff back than Ebay stuff, but that's because there's no negotiating with KEH. Take it or return it.
goamules
Well-known
Yes, just start a claim, now.
On sellers, a question: besides the other 2 Leica lenses, does the seller specialize in cameras? Or was it a one-time find he's selling? Ebay is a virtual garage sale, it is NOT A RETAIL STORE! People sell things all the time they know nothing about, that they found or inherited. They don't know if the tube radio works, they don't know a cast iron skillet can warp, they don't know if the coin is a forgery. That's just the way it is, no one can be an expert at every single item every made by man or God. No one but a photographer would shine a bright LED light through a lens at angles, looking through a loupe. He probably didn't see the problem.
Before Ebay, you'd go to a flea market, or a guy at a yard sale would be selling a camera. You'd handle it, and determine, as the expert, if it was worth the asking price. If you got burned, you got burned, and didn't usually try to go back to the seller. Because he was NOT an expert. Today, online, you cannot handle items, so there is the problem.
If it was a "camera seller" then that's a different deal, he should know better. Either way, no one likes to have to give a refund. But after they (usually small time seller) realize camera people are very picky and need fantastic condition optics, they are usually more careful next time they sell a lens or camera. I'm telling you, in the 5 or 10 areas I buy antiques, camera buyers expect the most out of a 60 or 75 year old tool. You gave the guy a chance though, now just make a claim and let ebay give you your refund.
On sellers, a question: besides the other 2 Leica lenses, does the seller specialize in cameras? Or was it a one-time find he's selling? Ebay is a virtual garage sale, it is NOT A RETAIL STORE! People sell things all the time they know nothing about, that they found or inherited. They don't know if the tube radio works, they don't know a cast iron skillet can warp, they don't know if the coin is a forgery. That's just the way it is, no one can be an expert at every single item every made by man or God. No one but a photographer would shine a bright LED light through a lens at angles, looking through a loupe. He probably didn't see the problem.
Before Ebay, you'd go to a flea market, or a guy at a yard sale would be selling a camera. You'd handle it, and determine, as the expert, if it was worth the asking price. If you got burned, you got burned, and didn't usually try to go back to the seller. Because he was NOT an expert. Today, online, you cannot handle items, so there is the problem.
If it was a "camera seller" then that's a different deal, he should know better. Either way, no one likes to have to give a refund. But after they (usually small time seller) realize camera people are very picky and need fantastic condition optics, they are usually more careful next time they sell a lens or camera. I'm telling you, in the 5 or 10 areas I buy antiques, camera buyers expect the most out of a 60 or 75 year old tool. You gave the guy a chance though, now just make a claim and let ebay give you your refund.
rfaspen
[insert pithy phrase here]
All right folks. Well, my initial polite correspondence with the seller didn't go well. My similarly polite second request went ignored. I went to ebay to see about making a claim and there is simply no way to do so. There are pages with words telling me to do so, but no mechanism. No contact email, no contact phone number, no automatic way to make a claim (although there is a way to send an email to the seller, no longer useful).
What do I do? Any insights out there?
BTW, goamules really has it right. In the old days, I could inspect the thing I'm considering. I've never had a problem with that, even the few times I missed a defect--obviously my own fault, but very infrequent. Now with online transactions, its sooo difficult, but I realize that I've never had a bad transaction, not even a mediocre transaction, with RFF classifieds. And some of you know you've sold me a few things I trusted the ebay seller to have made an honest description and it wasn't. Here at RFF, I've only found honest, comprehensive descriptions. I will have to stick with dealing with honest camera-types from now on. Anyone want to buy a 90/2.8....cheap?
What do I do? Any insights out there?
BTW, goamules really has it right. In the old days, I could inspect the thing I'm considering. I've never had a problem with that, even the few times I missed a defect--obviously my own fault, but very infrequent. Now with online transactions, its sooo difficult, but I realize that I've never had a bad transaction, not even a mediocre transaction, with RFF classifieds. And some of you know you've sold me a few things
I trusted the ebay seller to have made an honest description and it wasn't. Here at RFF, I've only found honest, comprehensive descriptions. I will have to stick with dealing with honest camera-types from now on. Anyone want to buy a 90/2.8....cheap?Corran
Well-known
VertovSvilova
Well-known
There's no reason to be so defeatist. People file claims and return items all the time. Just follow the links (as posted above) or at the very bottom of the eBay page and click on "contact us." Call PayPal, too (they will give you a one-time code to use when you call them and you'll get a live person to help you out.) eBay has put the buyer first now in transaction disputes and you will have NO problem getting a refund. And PayPal will immediately hold the seller's funds. It really is not that painful at all and you have every right to return the item and get a refund. If other buyers can get refunds easily, then you can too. Sure, it takes a bit of effort (that keeps people from returning stuff just on impulse; but it's really no different than having to take the time and effort to drive to a store with the receipt and argue for a return....)
Don't just roll over and play dead.
Solinar
Analog Preferred
@rfaspen - Use the link posted by Corran, above. Notify PayPal as well.
Be aware that the process for receiving a full refund will take at least 3 weeks, probably longer. You'll have to a multitude of messages through eBay during the process. Keep in mind that they'll all eventually be read by someone at eBay, so keep it civil.
In each eBay message, clearly state in a couple of brief sentences why the item is not as described and if it is unusable, do mention. Start and end each message with the words, "Not as described - I want a full refund."
Begin the process now and you'll probably receive a refund before Christmas.
Be aware that the process for receiving a full refund will take at least 3 weeks, probably longer. You'll have to a multitude of messages through eBay during the process. Keep in mind that they'll all eventually be read by someone at eBay, so keep it civil.
In each eBay message, clearly state in a couple of brief sentences why the item is not as described and if it is unusable, do mention. Start and end each message with the words, "Not as described - I want a full refund."
Begin the process now and you'll probably receive a refund before Christmas.