HSI
The Fourth
I suppose they need a competitor to the Bessa and the Ikon.
The only problem I see with that is the abundance of used cameras in the market as of now (though this market isn't for everybody). It is easy to get a hold of an used M for less than seven hundred dollars (not to mention these are professional quality cameras). To create a brand new camera to compete with these used cameras as well as the Bessa's and Ikon's, would require something special.
But what could they possible do without defaming their quality?
The only problem I see with that is the abundance of used cameras in the market as of now (though this market isn't for everybody). It is easy to get a hold of an used M for less than seven hundred dollars (not to mention these are professional quality cameras). To create a brand new camera to compete with these used cameras as well as the Bessa's and Ikon's, would require something special.
But what could they possible do without defaming their quality?
vieri
Leica Ambassador
Agreed of course
however, by the nature of the beast, you'd agree with me that probably Leica will never have the same kind of exposure as Nik/Can - the problem is not with Leica, I am sure they would love to have their products available everywhere: the problem is that your average shopping mall photo shop will never invest a few tenth of thousands dollars/euros to stock some Leica gear that he will sell very slowly (if at all), while he can stock a lot of Nik/Can investing a tenth of what he would spend for 1 Leica kit of a camera and a few lenses. Compact Leicas are much more available, actually I got my D-Lux 3 from an average photo shop in an average mall here in Istanbul; as well, the same shop was carrying Nik/Can but just the basic models (no D3, 1Ds, just D40, 80, and 400D kind of cameras), and no pro lenses (just your basic consumer zooms). So, I'd put it this way:- your average small mall shop stocks consumer gear from all brands he assume reasonably he will sell;
- your average small mall shop doesn't stock pro gear of any brand, though he might be able to order it for you;
- Leica's stuff is considered pro, or at least priced as such;
consequence: your small mall shop doesn't stock Leica.
Now, wether Leica would or will expand their product line toward the lower end is a different story: they are doing it with the Summarit line, they probably would need a "lesser" body than a M8, less expensive at least - however, the less expensive Leica M stuff is still way more expensive than equivalent stuff from other brands, and still aims to a advanced amateur/pro market (no AF, no VR, no 15x zoom, and so on).
So, what you suggest they do, and/or what do you suggest the mum & pop stores do to break this circle - which, by the way, is direct expression and mirror of the society we live in, not just of Leica?
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Leica's ability to build a camera that can span fifty years of constant use and still be repairable and servicable around the globe ... albeit by fairly small specialists like DAG Youxin Ye etc ... speaks volumes for their ability as a manufacturer. Quite a lot of cameras from other manufacturers dating back to the M3 period are getting difficult to repair due to certain parts starting to dry up. The fact that this hasn't happened to the M series yet indicates that nothing much actually breaks or wears out. Their success has been bought about by evolution of design rather than total redesign and this in some ways is a cross that they've made for themselves and they certainly weren't trying to break free from that heritage when they released the M8 ... which when you think about it is slightly crippled by this attitude in it's non compatibility with current digital technollogy because of it's need to look like the M3!
They need to bring out some cameras that get away from that thinking and appeal to a wider consumer audience, make some real money out of them but keep producing the digital M for the diehards who will pay whatever to own something unique!
They need to bring out some cameras that get away from that thinking and appeal to a wider consumer audience, make some real money out of them but keep producing the digital M for the diehards who will pay whatever to own something unique!
italy74
Well-known
I suggest an AF camera around 1000 € (dslr or rf) done along the panasonic lines but with Leica specifics. Unfortunately, neither leica can risk to remain only in its own MF (manual focus) garden.. I think something like the Zeiss Ikon (which is way cheaper than the M7/M8 while however keeping the same concept, a RF camera)
If you think, the Leica simplicity could be just an advantage for such a camera. Leica philosophy isn't for many things on a camera. I don't know so deeply the M8 but I guess there are only a few parameters to setup, differently from ANY Nikon or Canon. When, months ago, I passed from the F80 to the F6 of course I did a huge step in terms of sheer performance, but also the F6 could need a little pop up flash for a fast fill-in, or an inner grid to show on demand or just the same, few, commands the F80 had. Less gimmicks, but better done. Less expenses for R&D and more ease for the first time Leica user to get accustomed to it. Of course Leica must push its ad toward your own pure research of photography through simplicity.
I don't think it's too hard, if they want. Of course, such camera could mount ANY M lens AND Leica could produce a short range high quality vario zoom, underlining how in real street photography, famous photographers rarely went over 50 mm with their legendary M cameras. For what we've just seen in the other thread (here: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61904 ), almost everyone here reputed a lens between 28 and 50 mm his own "unique" lens, so let's say a 25-50 F/2 AF OR a 24-135 F/4, slower but extremely well corrected.
If a FF sensor it's too expensive, ok, let's go for DX and adjust the above focal lenghts to a 17-35 or a 16-90 as Nikon did with one of its latest exits.
If you think, the Leica simplicity could be just an advantage for such a camera. Leica philosophy isn't for many things on a camera. I don't know so deeply the M8 but I guess there are only a few parameters to setup, differently from ANY Nikon or Canon. When, months ago, I passed from the F80 to the F6 of course I did a huge step in terms of sheer performance, but also the F6 could need a little pop up flash for a fast fill-in, or an inner grid to show on demand or just the same, few, commands the F80 had. Less gimmicks, but better done. Less expenses for R&D and more ease for the first time Leica user to get accustomed to it. Of course Leica must push its ad toward your own pure research of photography through simplicity.
I don't think it's too hard, if they want. Of course, such camera could mount ANY M lens AND Leica could produce a short range high quality vario zoom, underlining how in real street photography, famous photographers rarely went over 50 mm with their legendary M cameras. For what we've just seen in the other thread (here: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61904 ), almost everyone here reputed a lens between 28 and 50 mm his own "unique" lens, so let's say a 25-50 F/2 AF OR a 24-135 F/4, slower but extremely well corrected.
If a FF sensor it's too expensive, ok, let's go for DX and adjust the above focal lenghts to a 17-35 or a 16-90 as Nikon did with one of its latest exits.
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italy74
Well-known
italy74
Well-known
p.s... Just imagine if (how I think) Zeiss or Nikon come out sooner or later with a digital RF (FF or not) and Leica isn't ready.... Leica must hurry up since competitors won't wait for it and Leica can't face a further erosion of its small niche market.
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tomasis
Well-known
italy74, I dont see any need more complicated than Digilux 3 or Panasonic. It is already there. They are gonna continue with R too. There are some P&S.
If you want high quality, nothing can be done much differently with M8. Look there are some very good and quite expensive lenses, manufactured in many years. Why abandon those for just some new features. To compete against what? Multi billion industry leaders? To satisfy people which believe in higher Megapixels numbers?
If one wants good quality camera with AF and bigger sensor, there are DSLR from nikon and canon. No need dragging Leica to the game. It is impossible to compete Canon which produce millions things to satisfy never ending lust of the people. It is multi bilion $$ industry against 50-100 people facility in Germany which has high labour costs.Thankfully Leica is not either stock holders company.
Heritage is one of some strong point of the trademark of Leica, at the same time, might be very dangerous. But to change form shape of M3 is certainly much same as to stop produce Porsche 911 and sell only Panamera.
If you want high quality, nothing can be done much differently with M8. Look there are some very good and quite expensive lenses, manufactured in many years. Why abandon those for just some new features. To compete against what? Multi billion industry leaders? To satisfy people which believe in higher Megapixels numbers?
If one wants good quality camera with AF and bigger sensor, there are DSLR from nikon and canon. No need dragging Leica to the game. It is impossible to compete Canon which produce millions things to satisfy never ending lust of the people. It is multi bilion $$ industry against 50-100 people facility in Germany which has high labour costs.Thankfully Leica is not either stock holders company.
Heritage is one of some strong point of the trademark of Leica, at the same time, might be very dangerous. But to change form shape of M3 is certainly much same as to stop produce Porsche 911 and sell only Panamera.
ferider
Veteran
Porsche only survived because of the Cayenne ....
Chris101
summicronia
Porsche only survived because of the Golf.
italy74
Well-known
Hi Sniper
you're right, they probably "don't" want put Leica out of business but if the same number of people buying a new (digital) rangefinder (which is already "little" compared to dslr sales) is then divided into three branches (and two are more visible/affordable than Leica) I think that Leica could be in any case in danger or in a less comfortable situation. Again, I think they should start thinking not to depend only on M8 sales.
ClaremontPhoto
Jon Claremont
I was about to write that, but thought better of it!
ClaremontPhoto
Jon Claremont
Leica has no brand recognition whatsever in Portugal. Even though Leica make parts here, and in the past have made cameras.
I lent a Leica to a friend as we needed some product photos of some (non-photo) stuff we were selling on eBay.
When he came back he told me that he hadn't used the Leica, because when he got to the shop they lent him a better camera - a Canon APS P&S!
I lent a Leica to a friend as we needed some product photos of some (non-photo) stuff we were selling on eBay.
When he came back he told me that he hadn't used the Leica, because when he got to the shop they lent him a better camera - a Canon APS P&S!
Dektol Dan
Well-known
And I Will Outlive My Wife?
And I Will Outlive My Wife?
All too often there is no rhyme or reason for the success or failure of a product. VW bugs, Austin minis, Citroen CVs lasted far beyond any rational reason for them to stay in production.
VHS succeeded Beta in the market when it was clearly an inferior design.
Leica would be a giant hit if it were bling to not just the few rich that now support it. Imagine if it were popular like Rolex or Harley Davidson. Both of these products have far outlived their practical lifespan, but not their popular lifespan. Both have to compete with the used and second hand, but yet they succeed because those used items are by far the cheapest and best advertising for their mark.
It's hard to compete with status married to utility.
And I Will Outlive My Wife?
All too often there is no rhyme or reason for the success or failure of a product. VW bugs, Austin minis, Citroen CVs lasted far beyond any rational reason for them to stay in production.
VHS succeeded Beta in the market when it was clearly an inferior design.
Leica would be a giant hit if it were bling to not just the few rich that now support it. Imagine if it were popular like Rolex or Harley Davidson. Both of these products have far outlived their practical lifespan, but not their popular lifespan. Both have to compete with the used and second hand, but yet they succeed because those used items are by far the cheapest and best advertising for their mark.
It's hard to compete with status married to utility.
JPSuisse
Well-known
Apropos cheap, the following newscast interview with Jenoptik's chairman of the board of directors was rather interesting:
http://www.sbroker.de/sbl/mdaten_analyse/audio_boerse_detail?articleID=12911#
It indicates that Leica is working on lowering its cost structures. Is this for lenses or for cameras? Sounds like digital cameras, if you ask me. I point out however that this post has nothing really to do with the theme of the thread. But it's already diverged. Lowering cost alone or adding a FF sensor is not the revolution that Puts was talking about!
http://www.sbroker.de/sbl/mdaten_analyse/audio_boerse_detail?articleID=12911#
It indicates that Leica is working on lowering its cost structures. Is this for lenses or for cameras? Sounds like digital cameras, if you ask me. I point out however that this post has nothing really to do with the theme of the thread. But it's already diverged. Lowering cost alone or adding a FF sensor is not the revolution that Puts was talking about!
JohnnyRangefinder
Member
I think this is on the money...
I think this is on the money...
I am also of the mind that Photokina will bring something 'different' -- say a 1.3x sensor, Leica 'MiniLux-type' camera -- a fixed retractible 40mm f/2'ish equivalent lens with similar optical viewfinder. As a product engineered 'in total', Leica can more easily tailor a specific lens design to a given sensor and optimize microlens requirements and such with probably extraordinary results.
Cheers,
S.G.
I think this is on the money...
I am also of the mind that Photokina will bring something 'different' -- say a 1.3x sensor, Leica 'MiniLux-type' camera -- a fixed retractible 40mm f/2'ish equivalent lens with similar optical viewfinder. As a product engineered 'in total', Leica can more easily tailor a specific lens design to a given sensor and optimize microlens requirements and such with probably extraordinary results.
Cheers,
S.G.
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
Since there are people that don't recognize the "Macallan", or "El Injerto" brands, what does that make of them? Are Chivas Regal or Starbucks far better and superior, instead?
Or what do you mean by a brand not having recognition whatsoever in Portugal?
Prosaic
Well-known
Am I the only one who thinks Leica should have teamed up with Canon / Nikon far earlier for camera production? Let them build the sensor and electronics and let them assemble the camera in Japan. Build a true consumer line of lenses in Taiwan. Build a digital CL there as well. Keep design and marketing in-house in Wetzlar.
italy74
Well-known
Well, Prosaic
you're NOT the only one, but I'm not sure that a full "consumer line" could be the right thing to do. Of course Leica has to offer something more visible and affordable, but I'm not sure if lowering so much quality could be a plus for them. Quality, even through Canon / Nikon should remain high (or visibly high)
you're NOT the only one, but I'm not sure that a full "consumer line" could be the right thing to do. Of course Leica has to offer something more visible and affordable, but I'm not sure if lowering so much quality could be a plus for them. Quality, even through Canon / Nikon should remain high (or visibly high)