Latest Update on Leica M8 or Digital M

[TEZillman]

Since we're talking about a Leica, an LCD screen would undoubtedly be pulled from the bottom of the camera body! Just kidding ....

 

[Ben Z]

This is the latest info I have about the upcoming M8.

With the M8 moving forward, all new lenses starting in Germany next month will have an electronic contact which tells the camera which frame lines to use.

Thas all I know for now from my birds in the N.E 😀

Did you get that from Christian? Because otherwise I would be very skeptical. I just looked over my lenses, and on my 90 Tele-Elmarit (the fat one) there isn't even a hair of space between the inside of the flange and the rangefinder cam, and there must be many other lenses likewise. On my rigid chrome 50 Cron, the flange has no attaching screws and seems to be one piece with the bottom ring of the lens (that has the infinity lock and the d-o-f scale. There are so many variations and permutations over the 50 yr history of M lenses, it would seem like very many lenses would be un-retrofittable, at least not without involving engineering that Leica would have to charge a lot more than $125 for. Even if the M8 would have an electronic frameline motor instead of a mechanical linkage, there would be no reason it couldn't have a microswitch operated by existing lens cams. Personally I will wait to hear this confirmed officially by Leica, or at least by someone who has actually handled the camera and isn't remaining anonymous. Because, if people have to either have all their lenses chipped, or stop and change framelines manually each time they put on a different lens (like the Bessa cameras), the M8 is going to lose a lot of potential buyers and I can't imagine Leica doesn't know that or care.

 

[willie_901]

Expectations. Benefits and Specualtion

Expectations. Benefits and Specualtion

Do digital photogs really expect that? And do they really benefit from it? How?

They expect lens EXIF data because 99.9% of digicams – from the least expensive P&S to the most expensive DLSR – have this ability. The media expect this and consumers expect it.

A photographer who views themselves as a perpetual student can benefit from keeping an exposure data log. Whether you record the data on paper, memorize it or automatically store it in an data file is a matter of convenience and accuracy.

EXIF data is no different than any other data. If you don't use it, you can't benefit from it. Before digital cameras many photographers kept a notebook of exposure info. Did they benefit from their data?

I speculated the alleged low-cost chip upgrade for existing Leica lenses will not record focus and aperture data. Recording just the lens type and serial number data has minimal utility. I doubt Leica will be overwhelmed with requests to modify existing lens. But M8 users who send a pre-M8 lens in for CLA or repair will probably buy a chip.

To me the only interesting question concerns second generation Leica M8 lenses. Will they be fully or partially automated, and if so, when? Or, will they simply record manually set focus and aperture settings? I could care less, but it is fun to think about.

What would you do if you were the Supreme Galactic Emperor or Empress of planet Leica?

willie

 

[kbg32]

speculate, speculate, speculate...... As the release time gets nearer, more and more details about the M8 will be known. I'm sure that there will be a pre-release review or two before then as well. I can't wait!

 

[MP Guy]

There will be some sort of official announcement next week from Leica

 

[kbg32]

See, that didn't take long!

Thanks Jorge.

 

[jlw]

There's little space to do anything inside the lenses and, with a cost of $125, I can't see them doing much more than replacing the lens mount, a few screws on most lenses. Maybe there will be sprung contacts on the face of the camera lens mount and a pattern of DX-style coded lands set into the rear of the lens mount. Maybe there will be a set of contacts around the lens throat like on a Nikon lens.

I agree that the retrofit couldn't involve much more than that, and the slick thing is that there wouldn't NEED to be much more to capture basic exposure info.

A simple contact pad at the rear of the lens mount could easily signal the lens' focal length and maximum aperture to the body. (This info either could be burned onto a ROM chip, as on the Contax G2, or simply done by a pattern of how the pins are interconnected, the way the jumper block on a hard disk mechanism works.)

Signalling the maximum aperture would allow the camera to compute the current working aperture by comparing TTL- and non-TTL-measured light levels -- without requiring the addition of an encoder on the aperture ring or any other moving parts.

Again, this is how working apertures are determined on the Contax G2 for recording exposure data in its data back. The camera reads the overall light level as measured by the non-TTL meter cell (which is provided for metering with the Hologon lens) and compares it to the measurement from the TTL cell in the camera throat. Knowing these two measurements plus the lens' maximum aperture (read from its ROM chip) allows the camera to calculate the aperture that's set on the lens.

Taking this simple approach on M lenses would allow the EXIF data to record focal length, shutter speed, and (approximate) aperture for every shot, without requiring any mechanical alterations to the lens at all. Presumably it also could be retrofitted to other manufacturers' M-mount lenses, assuming they could crack the code used for the data exchange.

 

[Ben Z]

I agree that the retrofit couldn't involve much more than that, and the slick thing is that there wouldn't NEED to be much more to capture basic exposure info.

A simple contact pad at the rear of the lens mount could easily signal the lens' focal length and maximum aperture to the body.

Have you had a look at the rigid chrome (50s-60s) Summicron? There aren't any screws on the lens mount, it's integral with the part of the lens that has the DOF scale and the stop for the infinity lock (on the rigid). On many other lenses, if you take off the lens mount there's a wide flat plate that extends to the flange opening, which has the female screw threads for the lens mount and the two butt up to each other. Unlike the R lenses the M lenses were designed with maximum compactness in mind, not with future incorporation of some kind of databus affair. I would be really surprised not to see a long list of M lenses incompatible with upgrading, unless they're planning to mill out a tiny slot and epoxy in some kind of tiny microchip. Even so, if non-chipped lenses won't bring up the proper framelines, Leica's going to have an angry torch-waving mob outside their door, mark my words.

 

[John Camp]

"Even so, if non-chipped lenses won't bring up the proper framelines, Leica's going to have an angry torch-waving mob outside their door, mark my words."


In some ruminations above, I concluded that wouldn't happen...and to expand on that, this is why: Leica will be asking $5,000 for each body. Their best customers, at least initially, will be current users. To ask current users to buy another several thousand dollars worth of new lenses -- say, $7500 for three lenses -- which would duplicate lenses they already have, would be too much. The M8 would sink under its own weight; few people are going to buy what would amount to a $12,500 10 MP camera, not with the relatively small and lightweight D200 out there at $1600 and Zeiss lenses coming down the line. So: I'd be willing to bet quite a bit that the M8 will be fully functional with current lenses, but will not register all exif data with them. Of course, even with current lenses, it would be able to register ASA, shutter speed, time, date and a bunch of other information that would be determined within the body's electronics. With that data, any semi-experienced user should be able to guess the other stuff (It's bright sunlight in the photo, shutter speed is 125, ASA is 100, what's the f-stop? Can you say "Sunny 16?")

So, I've stopped worrying, have retracted all threatening messages, and have gone back to my usual indolent self.

JC

 

[Mark Norton]

This site is claiming to know which lenses can be "upgraded":

http://www.summilux.net/m_system/objectifs_6_bits.html

If you hunt around, there's also a picture of what might be an M8 on test.

They're saying the coding will be 6 bit - which allows a number in the range 0 - 63 to be passed to the camera.

 

[Ben Z]

I don't know French, does it say anywhere if the coding chip will be required in order for the lens to bring up the proper framelines automatically, or not? That's (at least to me) the only critical issue. I don't give a hoot if the EXIF file doesn't have the lens data (I shoot my old Pentax screwmount lenses on my Canon 20D just fine), but if I have to set the framelines manually every time I change lenses I want no part of the M8. It's not the money for having the lenses converted either, it's that three of my 5 Leica lenses aren't on the list of possibles: my E43 50 Summilux, my rigid chrome Summicron, and my "fat" 90 T-E.

 

[Bob Parsons]

Google translation works quite well. You can continue to browse the site with the translator active 😀

Bob.

 

[santino]

I've just heard about the metallic shutter and the compatibility to all M lenses (read it in "Leica World")

 

[Mark Norton]

Here's the translation from Babel Fish. Mind you, these are the people who have a picture on a "Digital M" link with film rails... I was fooled until someone pointed it out, so whether the following is true is anyone's guess...

Dont get the reference to aircraft though! It's translated "d'identifier l'optique monté sur l'appareil" as "to identify optics gone up on the aircraft"; should be "to identify the lens mounted on the camera". LOL.

"New: As from July 1, 2006, Leica will deliver objectives M with contacts. As for the system Leica R, the contacts will not be essential, but they will make it possible to optimize the adjustments with the M numerical. From July 1, 2006, Leica will deliver objectives M equipped with contacts 6 bits. The code 6 bits extends the functions of the numerical LEICA M. Compatibility is completely ensured with the system present, passed, future. The public price of all the objectives will be slightly increased at July 1, 2006. The current objectives, delivered before July 1, 2006, could be updated for a tariff appreciably equal to the increase in July 1, 2006. The references remain unchanged, packing of the coded objectives 6 bits will be recognizable with the labels announcing the 6 bits. The former objectives can also be updated (see the tables below). Which is the object of optics M with identifying code 6 bits? The update of the bayonet of optics Leica M is used to ensure an optimal result of image associated the LEICA M numerical. The system of the optical sensor makes it possible the apparatus to read the code on the bayonet of the objective and to identify optics gone up on the aircraft. Of course, it is possible to use uncoded optics and to obtain good results with the digital LEICA M, and, vice versa, all coded optics can be used on silver apparatuses LEICA M without any restriction. The digital LEICA M adds the data transmitted by the objective to the metadata and uses this information to treat the data of the image optimalement. With an aim of preserving compatibility with the former and future material, the bayonet of the LEICA M remains unchanged. How does the code function? With an aim of marking the type of objective, the ring of the bayonet is equipped with 6 contacts black and white. On the digital LEICA M, coding is recognized with the assistance of 6 sensors integrated into the bayonet of the apparatus. "

 

[ch1]

They expect lens EXIF data because 99.9% of digicams – from the least expensive P&S to the most expensive DLSR – have this ability. The media expect this and consumers expect it.

A photographer who views themselves as a perpetual student can benefit from keeping an exposure data log. Whether you record the data on paper, memorize it or automatically store it in an data file is a matter of convenience and accuracy.

EXIF data is no different than any other data. If you don't use it, you can't benefit from it. Before digital cameras many photographers kept a notebook of exposure info. Did they benefit from their data?

I speculated the alleged low-cost chip upgrade for existing Leica lenses will not record focus and aperture data. Recording just the lens type and serial number data has minimal utility. I doubt Leica will be overwhelmed with requests to modify existing lens. But M8 users who send a pre-M8 lens in for CLA or repair will probably buy a chip.

To me the only interesting question concerns second generation Leica M8 lenses. Will they be fully or partially automated, and if so, when? Or, will they simply record manually set focus and aperture settings? I could care less, but it is fun to think about.

What would you do if you were the Supreme Galactic Emperor or Empress of planet Leica?

willie

I believe that the EXIF data is also used by processing software such as PS. While Leica may believe it is all high and mighty - it's digipics too will have to find a place in the PS world! 😀

 

[ch1]

Here's the translation from Babel Fish. Mind you, these are the people who have a picture on a "Digital M" link with film rails... I was fooled until someone pointed it out, so whether the following is true is anyone's guess...

Dont get the reference to aircraft though! It's translated "d'identifier l'optique monté sur l'appareil" as "to identify optics gone up on the aircraft"; should be "to identify the lens mounted on the camera". LOL.

"New: As from July 1, 2006, Leica will deliver objectives M with contacts. As for the system Leica R, the contacts will not be essential, but they will make it possible to optimize the adjustments with the M numerical. From July 1, 2006, Leica will deliver objectives M equipped with contacts 6 bits. The code 6 bits extends the functions of the numerical LEICA M. Compatibility is completely ensured with the system present, passed, future. The public price of all the objectives will be slightly increased at July 1, 2006. The current objectives, delivered before July 1, 2006, could be updated for a tariff appreciably equal to the increase in July 1, 2006. The references remain unchanged, packing of the coded objectives 6 bits will be recognizable with the labels announcing the 6 bits. The former objectives can also be updated (see the tables below). Which is the object of optics M with identifying code 6 bits? The update of the bayonet of optics Leica M is used to ensure an optimal result of image associated the LEICA M numerical. The system of the optical sensor makes it possible the apparatus to read the code on the bayonet of the objective and to identify optics gone up on the aircraft. Of course, it is possible to use uncoded optics and to obtain good results with the digital LEICA M, and, vice versa, all coded optics can be used on silver apparatuses LEICA M without any restriction. The digital LEICA M adds the data transmitted by the objective to the metadata and uses this information to treat the data of the image optimalement. With an aim of preserving compatibility with the former and future material, the bayonet of the LEICA M remains unchanged. How does the code function? With an aim of marking the type of objective, the ring of the bayonet is equipped with 6 contacts black and white. On the digital LEICA M, coding is recognized with the assistance of 6 sensors integrated into the bayonet of the apparatus. "

Mark,

And you did not recognize this a technobabble? 😕

 

[jlw]

So, apparently they're just using a pattern of black-and-white stripes marked on the lensmount, and read by a sensor in the camera body mount? Rather clever, I think, as long as it isn't thrown off by dirt etc.

On the other hand, charging $125 to stick a bar-code sticker on the lens mount sounds a bit stiff even by Leica standards.

 

[Mark Norton]

Mark,

And you did not recognize this a technobabble? 😕

Well, yes, it was in French after all... the whole thing could be a red-harring, all this rumour-mongering from "Leica Reps" (senior or otherwise) - when you last believe anything a salesman told you?

Thry must be doing more than putting a sticker on the lens mount - they cannnot change the lens to focal plane distance, it's got to be damp, wear and dirt resistant too.

 

[c.poulton]

I sure hope they have a manual function so that even if the framelines don't automatically appear one can at least set them manually. I think it would be a shame not to be able to use all the wonderful and less expensive lenses out there. Especially since I don't have any Leitz glass and $5K is a bit above my level of affordability these days already without having to buy new lenses as well. I'll keep dreaming though.

Here here! Surely Leica will include some manual functionality for frameline selection - for us owners of old LTM glass. (I am saving up for a M8, but it may take quite a few years if I have to buy new Leica glass as well!)

Oh hum.........

 

[VinceC]

>>it's got to be damp, wear and dirt resistant too.<<

Surely the rear metal elements of a Leica mnount would not be more fragile than the rear glass elements.