Leica II without serial number: fake or not?

[Membedeep]

Hello everyone. Excuse my bad english please! 🙂

I am trying since last week to find out what camera I just bought for 100 Euros - so a bargain, whatever the camera finally is! It had a collapsible Elmar. It was in a bad shape, but I have put a real snake-skin in dark red and now is not a shame to put it behind the glass, with other Leicas and goodies...

I have also asked people on the photo.net forum about this camera. But opinions are not the same, so I am still uncertain.

As you can see from the pictures below, the camera has several features of an original Leica: the front VF window, strap eyelets, roller cam of the rangefinder, the lens stops where it should stop, the hole for the low-speeds dial and, in my opinion, the engraving.

I know, I also have several Leicas, including in LTM, so I know how the markings on the top plate should look. These markings are quiet off from the original "hand-written" logo that we all know. But is clean and neat, I don't think is home-made or russian-made.

Yes, the shutter-speed dial and the winder knob don't look original, neither the two round visors in the front and the flash-shoe, but everything else?

Someone said it's a faked Leotax. But is not. The top cover, around the shutter-speed round dial, in the Leotax is curved, but in here, is perfectly round - no corners.

Also, I have never seen a Leica-copy or a faked Leica without a serial number.

So what do you think this camera is actually?

Thank you very much!

 

[haempe]

The top plate (not the rf housing) is definitive russian. B instead of R for rewind.
Uncomplete fake with some original/imitated parts I would say.

 

[Dralowid]

RF housing looks very much like pre war FED.

Michael

 

[Lflex]

I think you already got the answer in the other forum. It is not a Leica. I give you that it is an unusual fake, but fake never the less - probably a "frankenfake"

 

[Membedeep]

RF housing looks very much like pre war FED.

Michael

Yes, it looks like my NKVD Fed, excepting the RF window.

 

[Dralowid]

I have a FED, roughly s/n 8xxx which has a viewfinder window just like that...mind you, it is probably worth quite a lot more than a Leica II!

Michael

 

[johannielscom]

The roller on the RF arm is really something. I have nver seen a Russian camera with a roller on the RF arm, they all have triangular or rectangular 'blocks' as a cam to follow the lens... It's not a Leica roller and RF arm either. It looks custom made...

You might even have a prewar FED prototype with a roller, that was faked into a Leica later...

Somebody put a lot of work into this camera!

I'd say ask around at www.ussrphoto.com, there's connaisseurs and collectors there who might be able to fill in the details.


EDIT: I'm also puzzled by the second larger hole on the front side. It was obviously drilled in at a later time since it partially covers a screw hole and the shutter crate was modified to allow for something being fitted in the hole. I'm thinking someone was considering fixing a flash sync there, but decided to cover the hole with vulcanite again...

 

[je2a3]

The shutter crate looks very similar to my Leica II which I restored. I speculate that your camera was made up of different parts:
1. As others suggested, an early FED VF/RF cover.
2. Possibly a Leica III or IIIa body?
3. As mentioned, Leica II or even a III/IIIa shutter crate with slow speed mechanism deleted.

 

[Penny Lane]

This type of roller nuts, but mostly the lack of shielding for the pulleys make me think the shutter crate is Russian after all (pre-war FED, most likely). Last time I saw a Leica II up close, the shutter's lower main pulley was shielded, requiring one extra screw and hole in the bottom of the crate (je2a3, you have pictures on your great site showing this shielding & its one extra screw).

Roller cams are known to have been faked, but that's unusual. Cam arms or even whole RF assemblies are, AFAIK, easily swapped out between FED/Zorki & Leica cameras.

My €0.02...

Edit to add: Isn't that a Zorki-4/5/6 type lens mount with the bevelled edge? Can these be set to register correctly on a Barnack type camera? Because that may mean I'll have to mothball my Zorki-4 to get my own FrankenZorki back up & running 🙂

Derk

 

[ErnestoJL]

Definitely its what is called a frankencamera, made up of several parts from different cameras.
Top plate seems to belong to a Fed 1; main body seems to belong to a Leica II but AFAIK, no Leica II came with strap eyelets. Advance knob is definitely russian, and the RF cam, seems to be custom made as it doesn´t look like a real Leica.
Do you have a pic from the lens front?, does it work?
Cheers
Ernesto

 

[David Hughes]

How about a repair using what was to hand and adding the home made engraving as a joke?

I can't see it was a fake as it isn't good enough in places and too good in others. It could even be a stolen/unused prototype to start with.

Trouble is, we don't know how many people have got their hands on it...

Regards, David

 

[Membedeep]

Thank you all for your answers!

Yes, the "B" on the top plate suggests that part is russian.

But the mistery continues, since it seems that under the rangefinder housing is a serial number, as you can see from this photo. I'm sure an original Leica would'n alowd that kind of errors on their cameras.

I don't think the rangefinder housing is from a Fed 1 - I have a very early Fed NKVD, with an early serial number, and the metal is different, the shape is different, etc. This one seems newer. But again, the camera beeing so full of misteries, I would except everything from it 🙂 And there are some... finishing details, diffrent from THIS ONE.

ps: how do I open the rangefinder housing without too much trouble, to see what is written in there?

@ Ernesto: the lens work, the RF seems accurate.

Thank you!

 

[David Hughes]

Just a thought...

In a few years time someone will buy it and take off the red snake-skin (obviously fake as they had black vulcanite on them) and start all over again on this forum. And you'll be blamed/suspected for covering it up with the snake skin.

Regards, David

 

[Membedeep]

😀😀😀

Yes, I decided to play with the snake skin, I admit. That's because I had it instead of the vulcanite, that is so hard to find in here. But it looks funny like this on the shelf and I have no intention to sell it. Probably it doesn't even worth more than I paid for it - 100 Euros

🙄

 

[wolves3012]

The crate and top plate look mostly early FED, with the later (i.e. wrong) speed-dial and what look like Zorki tension-roller locknuts (FED didn't use the star-shaped four-lobed type). The bodyshell might be something like a Leica IIIC, the lugs look about right. The RF sensor doesn't look like Leica but no russian production models used rollers, so that's a mystery one. All in all, it looks like what, in motorcyle terms, is called a bitsa.

 

[Cepg]

The very early FEDs (about first 5000 or so) has roller cam follower, like Leica II. This one looks different from Leica, so it maybe was made from one of the early FEDs - more valuable than true Leica becouse of rarity... Body shell most likely from a Leica III or so, since all FEDs have no strap lugs.

 

[Membedeep]

The rollercam looks like the one from my Leica III, but different from that of my IIIf.

The RF housing is the big mistery. It is not an early Fed. Those were hand made, this is to clean to be hand made.

And I have found something else: under the accesory shoe, there is a big hole for... something... Feds don't have that. I will take a picture of this. And this hole is not an adaptation, it is original.

 

[David Hughes]

Snip! Snip!
... And I have found something else: under the accesory shoe, there is a big hole for... something... Feds don't have that. I will take a picture of this. And this hole is not an adaptation, it is original.

Hi,

I've seen flash synchronisation added to cameras like my IIIc via a hole coming out at the bottom as well. Of course, the IIIc has film in it at present but I'll try and remember and post a photograph.

Regards, David

 

[Dralowid]

I have taken some photos of the way in which the rangefinder housing is moulded on an early Fed and realise that I am wrong... this is not a bit of Fed on this camera, it differs in a number of ways...will upload when I am allowed to. If you mean a hole underneath the accesory shoe when the shoe is removed, you'll find this on a Leica...I agree Feds don't have this.

Michael

 

[Membedeep]

Back again!

The RF system doesn't look to be russian. I have opened a Fed 1 and it is very different.

It has a number stamped on the top plate: 9482

Again, to me, the RF housing looks to be Leica's - just my opinion.