Leica IIf/IIIf screws question

[Mr_Flibble]

Not sure if this been asked before...

When did Leica start omitting the screws that normally hold the shell to the top cover?

I assume this started with the Leica If/IIf/IIIf series.


The openings are still there in the body shell of my IIf (nr.614xxx) but not the holes for it in the top cover.

This camera is a weird one anyway. It came with a front shutter plate that had a slow speed dial on it, but no slow speed mechanism, only the linkage arm going to the bottom of the camera.

Before restoration:

After restoration:

 

[martinjames]

Rick,

By the way, that restored IIf looks great!

I just had a look through my copy of Jim Lager's book (Vol. 1 - Cameras) and it does appear that the lack of screws begins with the IIIf and IIf. However, the If pictured in this book still has the screws and I think the If I recently sold had them as well.

In general, the IIIf and IIf probably did not have the screws any longer but it appears there are exceptions to this. In the same Lager book, in the section on the IIIf (page 69), there appears a black IIIf (apparently a genuine, special order order item from Leitz) that clearly has the screws in place.

I assume the body shells were produced with the holes, which were either eventually filled with screws, or not, depending on which camera model was assembled with the shell.

James

 

[Bill Clark]

I'm using a III f and it doesn't have the screws. it's like yours.

I have a 1936 III A and it does.

Taking a guess, would it be something to do with the change with the the body around 1940? Didn't Leica go to a one piece aluminum body?

I'm making photos of our new 1 week old grand son!

Fun and lots of smiles.

 

[Mr_Flibble]

Thanks James

In Hove's Leica Pocket Book there is a sample of a IIf Black Dial with serial 574xxx, that does have the screws.
I'm starting to think this change happened with or just after the introduction of the Red Dial version of the IIf and before the top shutter speed was increased to 1/1000th of a second on these cameras. Trying to verify this with images of these cameras that I can find online.

Congratulations on becoming a grandfather, Bill.
The IIIc did introduce a better shutter crate, but all six of my 1940-1945 IIIc cameras have those screws around the top cover.

 

[martinjames]

Rick, you may well be right about the red dial/black dial distinction, which I did not consider. I no longer have the If that I mentioned but I did find some pictures of it. It was a red dial and did not have the screws, after all.

James

 

[rfaspen]

I can confirm: IIIf black dial in the cupboard has screws. I no longer have a red dial to compare....sorry about that. But, the emerging pattern is holding so far:

IIIf (and II, I) BD have screws, IIIf (II, I) do not. Need more data?

 

[ray*j*gun]

My iiif red dial, self-timer does not have screws and my iiic does have screws.

 

[rfaspen]

I should clarify my earlier post. The pattern I think we're uncovering is:

Temporally (over the years), everything up to the III,II,If BD has screws in the top cover plate. Everything starting with the III, II, If RD does not have screws in top cover plate. I'm going to check my friend's RD later this evening and a IIIg sometime later.

Of course, the interwebs has tons of images of these models. Could do my research there I suppose.

Now,....what about conversions? A IIIa converted in 1960 to IIIf specs seems like it would retain the screws because the top plate of the pre-diecast models is...obviously different. But, a IIIc converted in 1960 to IIIf might get a new top plate without screws?

 

[Mr_Flibble]

Well, I'm convinced 🙂

I was wondering if there was a specific reason for leaving them out from this point on. Was Leica trying to cut down on production cost/time and were these found to be superfluous?
As the shell is only held on by 2 screws to the shutter crate, I can imagine this would cause light leaks between the shell and the top cover.
But there's no evidence that says it was a problem at all.

 

[Jerzyw]

Early postwar IIIc had even 5 crews, until 425xxx. Th fifth was on the left side, above the lug. With BD IIIf the four screws were gone, additional screw, under the frame counter was added.
Very nice restoration job, looks like even the shell is new. You wrote that accessory shoe has 2 screws. This means that it was originally IIf.
As a curiosity: late IF and IIf with new speeds (1/25 instead of 1/30) have slow speed mechanism but no slow speed dial. Full frame is fully opened at 1/30, slow speed mechanism is needed to build 1/25

 

[Mr_Flibble]

That IS curious.

My camera does have the newer speeds (1/25 1/50 and 1/75) on the dial. But the slow speed mechanism does not appear to have ever been in it.
Like I said, it's a weird one. Presumably repaired with parts from other cameras at some point in it's life. Perhaps the shutter speed dial was replaced as well.

 

[Mr_Flibble]

The IIf/IIIf part list agrees that version of the IIf should've had a slow speed mechanism for the 1/25th speed. Well cr@p. Guess the restoration isn't finished yet and I need to find the escapement for it.

😉

 

[Rob-F]

Rogliatti has a photo of a IIIf that does have the screws, but the serial number isn't legible. He doesn't comment about the screws. He does say the change from black to red dial occurred in 1952.

 

[Jerzyw]

yes, switch to red dial (and new speeds) was about 1952. For IIIf it was starting with 615xxx, however for IIf it was 574xxx (still 1952). Your camera was originally IIf, it could have been factory converted to IIIf (by adding slow speeds dial). Slow speed dial on the foto before restoration shows 25 which is correct for RD.
Nevertheless, in order to build 1/25th slow speeds mechanism is needed. Assuming the curtains are adjusted properly you will have now 1/30th instead of 1/25th. Not a big issue though, only cca 15% off.
Not a big issue to add slow speeds mechanisms, assuming other components are still in place (rod, spring, etc).

 

[Mr_Flibble]

I hadn't thought about that. Of course it could be an upgrade to IIIf as you say. It makes sense having the dial on there.
Everything is still there except the clockwork mechanism. Weird that someone has scavenged it.

Well, the camera was cheap. And as noted, the difference between 1/25 - 1/30th isn't that bad.
I only bought it to see if I could bring it back to life and to get a bit more experience working on Leica cameras.

 

[greyelm]

Just to add some more data, I have a IIf RD without screws and s IIIf BD with screws.

 

[WJJ3]

my 1fRD has 4 screws. SN 673xxx

 

[David Hughes]

FWIW, I'd suspect any Leica bought in Europe dating up to the early 50's to be a bitsa version. They were scare* and often cannibalised for parts and worse; meaning one made from 2 damaged ones...

Regards, David

PS Oops, "bitsa" is a corruption of "bits of this and that", or else called a "Bassett's" after that firm's liquorice allsorts... Both expressions date me.

* Required in large numbers for the war effort by both sides and damaged. And then to the early 50's only for export to the USA; although some say a small percentage (5?) were sold in Europe.

 

[Dralowid]

FWIW, I'd suspect any Leica bought in Europe dating up to the early 50's to be a bitsa version. They were scare* and often cannibalised for parts and worse; meaning one made from 2 damaged ones...

Regards, David

PS Oops, "bitsa" is a corruption of "bits of this and that", or else called a "Bassett's" after that firm's liquorice allsorts... Both expressions date me.

* Required in large numbers for the war effort by both sides and damaged. And then to the early 50's only for export to the USA; although some say a small percentage (5?) were sold in Europe.

Hence the popularity of conversions!

 

[Mr_Flibble]

Thanks for all the additional data, guys.

Looks like I'll be ordering some more parts from Dan Goldberg for this thing, when I find some more disposable income.
He has got slow speed gear trains for $30 on his website.