Leica LTM Leica IIIC K - share info and questions

[Rob-F]

About Ball Bearings

About Ball Bearings

I recall from the now-defunct IIIcK thread (I think we can call this one "the IIICK Thread in Exile") that some Leicas had one kind of ball bearings, and later ones had "half race" bearings. I understood "half race" to mean that the balls were not fully encased, but instead were visible on one side of the bearing. (Point #1: is that right?)

Next, I was having this discussion via email with my IIIc technician, John, who says that the actual difference is that in the first application of ball bearings to the IIIc, the cameras had ball bearings on the top and bottom of a shaft (I think he said main shaft); and also on the top and bottom of two tension rollers.

John said that in the later design, he sees the ball bearings only at the top of the one shaft, while all the other points have bushings. My comments about "half-race" meaning that the bearings were not fully enclosed, did not make sense to him.

Am I having a false memory, here?

Another thing: in my notes, I have two slightly different ranges for "half race" cameras: 391800 to 397600; and also 392800 to 397607. Does anyone know which range is correct?

Thanks!

Rob

 

[johannielscom]

What about the paint jobs on the grey IIIcK's? In the demised thread we had come to a conclusion as to what paint was used and what stuff was used on the fillings of the engravings. Anybody who can recall?

 

[LeicaTom]

What about the paint jobs on the grey IIIcK's? In the demised thread we had come to a conclusion as to what paint was used and what stuff was used on the fillings of the engravings. Anybody who can recall?

Johan,

I just posted something about this at this thread......

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=91172

The paint was Luftwaffe aircraft paint RLM 75 and the engravings were filled with white paint, which after a few years turns a creamy eggshell type color.

Tom

 

[johannielscom]

Recovering a wartime IIIc in vulcanite

Recovering a wartime IIIc in vulcanite

John,

in another thread I read in a post of yours that it is possible to re-cover a wartime IIIc in vulcanite with the original 1944 pattern, and it might even be possible to have the right coat or RLM paint on it.

Can you share some details on that? I might be interested to have a chrome 1943 IIIc re-covered with vulcanite.


Also, I wasn't aware that the wartime vulcanite had a different pattern from the 'regular' vulcanite.

Anyone that can show me photos of the 'normal', the 'wartime' and the 'restored wartime' vulcanites? I'd like to compare them so I can decide if my plan is worth the trouble...

 

[john neal]

John,

in another thread I read in a post of yours that it is possible to re-cover a wartime IIIc in vulcanite with the original 1944 pattern, and it might even be possible to have the right coat or RLM paint on it.

Can you share some details on that? I might be interested to have a chrome 1943 IIIc re-covered with vulcanite.


Also, I wasn't aware that the wartime vulcanite had a different pattern from the 'regular' vulcanite.

Anyone that can show me photos of the 'norma', the 'wartime' and the 'restored wartime' vulcanites? I'd like to compare them so I can decide if my plan is worth the trouble...

Johan,

Tom is really your expert on these things, I only know a very small amount about this. The early IIIb and IIIc production had (I think) the same pattern as the IIIa, this changed in 1942/43 (?) to a slightly "looser" pattern that was then common until late in the war years. I'm unsure whether there was then a different run from 1944/45 to the end of the IIIc, but before the post-war sharkskin.

I'm sure Tom will correct me here - Tom?

I have a chrome 1945 IIIc K (non-stamped) that has the correct period pattern in new vulcanite courtesy of CRR. Peter has reformulated the covering to use a non-rubber resin and has the ability to apply the correct pattern when he applies it. I don't know the full details, but it is worked into a thin sheet and then applied to the shell at about 150 deg C - the pattern applied by pressing down hard with a hot iron and a silicon "master".

When it comes back, it's a little soft, but hardens over a couple of months and looks just like the original. Smells a little different though, probably due to not having rubber in the compound. Peter has obviously done a lot of research into this, as he can also re-vulcanise a tired curtain to give it a few more years of useful life (maybe 10+ ?).

I'll try to get some shots of the new covering posted later in the week.

My marked K is from 3 days before D-Day, and grey, so the plan is to get Peter to recover it and then respray with the RLM 75 - I had a batch made up a while ago (genuine cellulose lacquer). Peter will spray if you want, but I wanted to do that myself. the chrome one should probably have grey vulcanite too - the original was believed to be grey - hence trying the grey kid skin to see what it looked like, but there is not enough depth in the pattern for my liking. maybe that one will get sprayed too, we'll see......

Hope that helps

 

[LeicaTom]

Johan,

Tom is really your expert on these things, I only know a very small amount about this. The early IIIb and IIIc production had (I think) the same pattern as the IIIa, this changed in 1942/43 (?) to a slightly "looser" pattern that was then common until late in the war years. I'm unsure whether there was then a different run from 1944/45 to the end of the IIIc, but before the post-war sharkskin.

I'm sure Tom will correct me here - Tom?

I have a chrome 1945 IIIc K (non-stamped) that has the correct period pattern in new vulcanite courtesy of CRR. Peter has reformulated the covering to use a non-rubber resin and has the ability to apply the correct pattern when he applies it. I don't know the full details, but it is worked into a thin sheet and then applied to the shell at about 150 deg C - the pattern applied by pressing down hard with a hot iron and a silicon "master".

When it comes back, it's a little soft, but hardens over a couple of months and looks just like the original. Smells a little different though, probably due to not having rubber in the compound. Peter has obviously done a lot of research into this, as he can also re-vulcanise a tired curtain to give it a few more years of useful life (maybe 10+ ?).

I'll try to get some shots of the new covering posted later in the week.

My marked K is from 3 days before D-Day, and grey, so the plan is to get Peter to recover it and then respray with the RLM 75 - I had a batch made up a while ago (genuine cellulose lacquer). Peter will spray if you want, but I wanted to do that myself. the chrome one should probably have grey vulcanite too - the original was believed to be grey - hence trying the grey kid skin to see what it looked like, but there is not enough depth in the pattern for my liking. maybe that one will get sprayed too, we'll see......

Hope that helps

Yep!

What you said John is how is was........the pre Oct 1942 pattern is IMPOSSIBLE to reproduce or replace, unless you have a donor camera.

I have never seen the CRR vulcanite up close, so I can't tell anything about that quality......

I restore my cameras with donor vulcanite shells, (I only have two cameras I have to do that to anyway) one has to have a RLM Grey treatment (John you have to have a sample shot onto some broken vulcanite so I can see the finished hue and see if it matches the original) ~ One of my Grey's must have a replacement shell (DAG did the one that's on it now, and it looks ok from 10 feet, but up close it's not good enough) ~ the Chrome IIIC K I have also needs a Grey shell, but these too were a differnet color Grey than the Grey painted cameras.......

Tom

 

[enasniearth]

grey paint comparison original wartime

grey paint comparison original wartime

i had read that there were two grey paint types used on the wartime IIIc cameras.
was able to compare these two original paint samples , here are some photographs .
on the left a chrome wartime IIIc with the grey paint vulcanite shell , this is the color refered to rm 75 violet grey .
on the right is a late grey paint wartime IIIc , the paint is closer to blue grey , darker in tone and flatter finish , not glossy as earlier type .
both are original paint .
the background is a faded army green t shirt that happened to be in the truck , so background color is not neutral .

 

[LeicaTom]

i had read that there were two grey paint types used on the wartime IIIc cameras.
was able to compare these two original paint samples , here are some photographs .
on the left a chrome wartime IIIc with the grey paint vulcanite shell , this is the color refered to rm 75 violet grey .
on the right is a late grey paint wartime IIIc , the paint is closer to blue grey , darker in tone and flatter finish , not glossy as earlier type .
both are original paint .
the background is a faded army green t shirt that happened to be in the truck , so background color is not neutral .

Very nicely done Al,

The IIIC K Grey is one of the HARDEST cameras in the world to photography due to the hue of the Grey's being different in every shot.

The website that had the best color charts and information on the RLM history of paints seems to have been removed from the net, I had perfectly matched my 1943 camera at that time to RLM 75 ~ but the model airplane color charts have that color way too light for what I had originally had matched the camera too.

So far that I have seen in person (with my cameras) is that the 1943 (May) and the 1945 (August) are the SAME color tone, which is RLM Grey #75 or as Al has said Violet Grey ~ so pretty much the Grey cameras and their vulcanite shells were painted this color, which does look/turn a slight bluish grey in certain lighting......

Now for the Grey painted vulcanite chrome cameras, there's still alot to be learned, clearly Al has a camera here with LIGHTER looking vulcanite, I have a camera with DARKER looking vulcanite, it may have to do with paint mixes or how the paint holds up over the years, while the camera I have the Grey painted vulcanite is also a flatter finish.

John, once your project starts back up I would be interested in possiblly getting the shell for my August 1945 #39059x K done ~ I will HAVE a reproduction "K" Shutter stamp made soon, prehaps we can exchange services?

Tom

 

[john neal]

John, once your project starts back up I would be interested in possiblly getting the shell for my August 1945 #39059x K done ~ I will HAVE a reproduction "K" Shutter stamp made soon, prehaps we can exchange services?

Tom

Tom, I will get around to spraying a sample of vulcanite and let you have a look, but it may be a few weeks. I have finally landed a paying job with a good firm, and need to get established in that before I think about my toys

I will need to get it done before February, as I'm starting a degree course and I think that will probably fill a lot of my non-work hours. The K is back together as far as a working shutter. I next need to look at the RF (I have a new beam splitter to fit), then it's a rebuild and test followed (probably) by new vulcanite by CRR and a coat of paint.

I'm still trying to decide whether to repaint the top plate - it is badly brassed, and using cellulose would allow me to strip it back very easily should I need to. The bottom plate is more of a trial - I only have a chrome one (original missing) that needs to be reverse chromed and painted. I managed to screw up the first try at that - too much caustic in the bath, and too high a current left me with a plate that has deckle edges :bang:

If my colour works out OK, I'd be happy to trade services, let's see how it works out.

 

[LeicaTom]

Well, this one just sold on evilbay for a hair under $3K......

http://cgi.ebay.com/U-S-FORCES-1945...346?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19bfcaefea

A camera far from perfect, (it was originally sold from Texas on evilbay about 3 months ago) it had excessive paint wear/patina (the camera was at best 75/80% paint not 90% as the seller stated) and it had that ugly Flash Sync.

Tom

 

[johannielscom]

If I recall correctly, Robert recently sold a IIIc-K Gray that was once updated to a Red Dial IIIf for close to ten grand after an eBay bid war. Camera went to China, the land of new collectors with different standards. I guess a lot of the cameras in time will go there, the Chinese have always had an interest for quality German products and there is a lot of interest and money there recently.

 

[john neal]

Tom,

Here's a couple of pics of the CRR vulcanite now on my non-stamp K.

What do you think?

 

[LeicaTom]

Tom,

Here's a couple of pics of the CRR vulcanite now on my non-stamp K.

What do you think?

Looks pretty good....haven't compared it to the real thing yet, I'm lucky I need only two shells restored and painted and I have them already off of "donor" cameras, I still have to perfect the shutter "K" stamp and I will restamp those two cameras once they are finished........

Tomorrow I should be getting back in the mail "The Major's Camera" (a US Army Signal Corps Leica IIIC K Grey from very late May 1945) as I RETRADED my "Wetzlar" M6 & /series 5/f2/50 Cron for it, it will get a roll of film in it right away, as soon as I can get a pretty gal over for portraits.

I'll take some new shots of the camera as soon as I can and post here, it will be good to have another full-time Grey IIIC K as a "user" again, I've been missing toting around the Grey paint ever since I traded 469 K for my M8

Tom

 

[Jaans]

Well, this one just sold on evilbay for a hair under $3K......

http://cgi.ebay.com/U-S-FORCES-1945...346?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19bfcaefea

A camera far from perfect, (it was originally sold from Texas on evilbay about 3 months ago) it had excessive paint wear/patina (the camera was at best 75/80% paint not 90% as the seller stated) and it had that ugly Flash Sync, but it's a sign that the prices for these cameras in clean original to near mint condition are worth even higher prices than $3,000 ~ makes me happy!!!!!!

Tom

Tom,

I have been following these threads on the K since their inception. So, I wonder if there were any K's sold at that recent auction that sold the MP2? Or were the buyers more interested in M cameras?

It seems that it is becoming increasingly difficult to find Leica IIIcK cameras that have the magical K on the shutter. There are a number of K IIIc's on the internet but without the K on the shutter.

I guess a K shutter can make a large difference in the outcome of the final price?

The price for that Leica MP2 is truely astounding. I wonder where the other 5 are?

Cheers,
Jaans

 

[LeicaTom]

Tom,

I have been following these threads on the K since their inception. So, I wonder if there were any K's sold at that recent auction that sold the MP2? Or were the buyers more interested in M cameras?

It seems that it is becoming increasingly difficult to find Leica IIIcK cameras that have the magical K on the shutter. There are a number of K IIIc's on the internet but without the K on the shutter.

I guess a K shutter can make a large difference in the outcome of the final price?

The price for that Leica MP2 is truely astounding. I wonder where the other 5 are?

Cheers,
Jaans

Yes Jaans, I think the're were 3 Grey IIIC K's at that auction ~ Westlicht normally has at least 1 or 2 K shuttered cameras always for sale, the K shuttered Grey painted cameras are even move coveted in Europe as they are here in the USA.

One Luftwaffen camera did like $15,000

A WH camera did like $17,000

and a normal civilian camera did $4,200

There was also a postwar modifed camera that had a replacement body shell and parts that sold for $1,900

So the Grey cameras have gone up very well in price in the past 12 months, maybe some of the few cameras among collectors that have really MADE money during this bad recession, I know my cameras have all but doubled almost tripled in value in the past 3 years.

The examples being offered recently too on the evilbay have been poor condition cameras, many with missing parts or vulcanite and without original lenses.

The original lenses make a great difference in a cameras final price, a camera is worth at least $600 to $800 more if the lens on it is orignal and if the "K" is on the shutter $500 to $1,000 more.

Tom

 

[LeicaTom]

Tom,

Here's a couple of pics of the CRR vulcanite now on my non-stamp K.

What do you think?

Not bad looking at all John..........I still need two shells refinished still for a US Army IIICK Grey paint and a IIIC K chrome body Grey vulcanite.

Tom

 

[Jaans]

Yes Jaans, I think the're were 3 Grey IIIC K's at that auction ~ Westlicht normally has at least 1 or 2 K shuttered cameras always for sale, the K shuttered Grey painted cameras are even move coveted in Europe as they are here in the USA.

One Luftwaffen camera did like $15,000

A WH camera did like $17,000

and a normal civilian camera did $4,200

There was also a postwar modifed camera that had a replacement body shell and parts that sold for $1,900

So the Grey cameras have gone up very well in price in the past 12 months, maybe some of the few cameras among collectors that have really MADE money during this bad recession, I know my cameras have all but doubled almost tripled in value in the past 3 years.

The examples being offered recently too on the evilbay have been poor condition cameras, many with missing parts or vulcanite and without original lenses.

The original lenses make a great difference in a cameras final price, a camera is worth at least $600 to $800 more if the lens on it is orignal and if the "K" is on the shutter $500 to $1,000 more.

Tom

Thanks Tom for that information. I guess those auctions at Westlicht can put a moderate conditioned iiic-K camera out of reach of people such as myself. I think that Westlicht also garners a lot of publicity, so potentially they have a lot of buyer interest.

It sounds like your sitting on a small goldmine with your collection. With the prices of K's and other military cameras rising even after the much publicised Global financial crisis, it makes you wonder what their prices will achieve if in a few years the economies of the world make a moderate recovery!

Looks like for now I will have to resign my search to local op shops and e-bay for a K camera when motivation strikes me.

I wonder what the chances are of one turning up in one of these shops? You always here stories of members finding Leicas in such places!

Cheers,
Jaans

 

[LeicaTom]

Thanks Tom for that information. I guess those auctions at Westlicht can put a moderate conditioned iiic-K camera out of reach of people such as myself. I think that Westlicht also garners a lot of publicity, so potentially they have a lot of buyer interest.

It sounds like your sitting on a small goldmine with your collection. With the prices of K's and other military cameras rising even after the much publicised Global financial crisis, it makes you wonder what their prices will achieve if in a few years the economies of the world make a moderate recovery!

Looks like for now I will have to resign my search to local op shops and e-bay for a K camera when motivation strikes me.

I wonder what the chances are of one turning up in one of these shops? You always here stories of members finding Leicas in such places!

Cheers,
Jaans

Well, with these the IIIC K Grey Painted cameras 80% of them are in the USA, or at least found their way here since the end of WW2 and now most have been scooped up by collectors, the best cameras came from WW2 veterans estates, which are now all but gone and since sold, very very few cameras make it intact to camera shops or dealers anymore.

I've been researching/collecting these cameras hardcore for about three years now and there's been a great change in the market and also the availability of good ORIGINAL matching numbers lens/body cameras, the past year has seen very few fine cameras offered and prices almost tripling despite the bad economy, the Grey "K" shutter cameras have been one of the few photographic collectibles that have actually increased in price and value instead of decreasing........and I don't see a downward trend, with less and less cameras around in the open market I see prices ever climbing skyward.

Tom

 

[Jaans]

That was an interesting point Tom about 80% of the IIIc-K Grey Painted cameras being in the USA. Like you said, it does seem that a lot of veterans ended up with these cameras.

I remember reading a funny anecdote a few years ago (maybe here) that the majority of collectable Leicas now reside in Japan! It seems the Japanese or even Asian collectors have taken a less shine to perhaphs the LTM Leicas than the M-mount Leicas? Would you agree with that?

And like you said, Grey IIIC-K cameras are only getting more expensive. That K shutter is really a memorable insignia!

I will continue my quest on ebay and secondhand shops!

Cheers,
Jaans

 

[LeicaTom]

HU: 1945 Leica IIIC K Grey (auction online)

HU: 1945 Leica IIIC K Grey (auction online)

Giving a heads up to anyone who might be interested in a "real" IIIC K Grey here on evilbay......

http://cgi.ebay.com/Leica-IIIc-K-gr...990169?pt=AU_FILM_CAMERAS&hash=item1c17d61459

This camera really got used hard in the past two years (it sold originally like 2 years ago or so from a dealer on evilbay) and was in much better shape then as it is now, as I recall it had most of it's vulcanite then and less wear, this camera now looks like it was used during the Normandy landings (just kidding!)

It is an original 1945 issued camera, issued the same day as one of mine was, sadly the original Elmar lens is gone ~ I would be going after this one myself, but getting my M6 project camera is MORE IMPORTANT to me now and I can't afford both...........

I'm sad to see the camera's in such bad shape, after how nice it was 2 years ago (I used my one camera for some daily work and I always took extra care when using it) ~ though honestly this camera now has a great patina and would make the ULTIMATE "user" IIIC K Grey, these cameras in this condition are hard to find in this grade and I suppose that the price will stay down??? Who knows???
(a broken early 1960's Black Paint M3 sold the other day for over $4k, so there's no telling, even beat up and broken RARE cameras bring some $$$$).

I have no connection whatsoever to the seller, I post this only as a favor to anyone here who might be in the market for a camera that I can see personally is a original 1945 US Army issued camera.

Tom