thegf
Established
mods - i'm not sure if this belongs in the right place or not. for that i apologize.
early this year, when i was looking back at all of my digital shots from the previous year (using either a canon 7d or nikon d80) i noticed that i lacked something. a lot of my shots were out of focus. a lot of shots just seemed to lack what a lot of people call mojo. in some respects, they were simply snapshots using an expensive and large camera.
after doing some reading online, i unearthed what some may call the slow camera movement (admittedly, this movement permeates all facets of life - food, sex, work, etc.). it got me thinking about framing, about exhaling while taking shots, and about focusing on more than just taking a picture and moving on. it got me thinking about the process of photography.
at the time, i believed that my greatest option was to sell my digital equipment and take a step back in time. i probably could have afforded to keep both (and surprisingly, my wife almost convinced me to do just that), but i decided it was better, creatively, if i just sold everything and turned over a new page.
enter the Leica m6.
although i had a smattering of nikon film stuff - a nikkormat, lenses - all inhereted from my ex-pro photographer dad, i felt the urge to purchase a leica. everyone said how different they were. whether it was for the lack of viewfinder blackout (or whatever its called), or whether it was for the greater ability to use the rangefinder to patiently observe your scenery and wait for that "decisive moment". not to mention how a leica feels in hand. that much is certainly true. its a marvelous machine. but this matters not if the machine sits parked inside of its bag, longing to be used.
all of these answers are among the more obvious for choosing a Leica. the more specific reason, for me, was that it provided me a blank slate to try my slow photography experiment.
and, like all experiments, i learned something through the process. i learned to frame, think about the picture, and then exhale while i took a picture. i learned the importance of 1/focal length to avoid camera blur. i learned that you needn't review all pictures on screen to ensure accuracy. whatever happens happens. with digital i learned to expect every picture to be perfect, for if it wasn't i could just take another picture and perfect it. with film, you simply can't do that. even if you take 100 frames of the same scene, you can never be certain that one will be perfect. or at least to your own liking.
i'm not sure if its a function of film or just a function of caring less, but i started to find that image sharpness and other useless details of a photo that are discussed on forums seemed remarkably insignificant. the technical (read: EXIF) qualities seemed to matter less and less.
but then i realized something. using film takes time. and ambition. this summer i went on vacaction. i primarily used my m6. i shot about 10 rolls of film, four of which were colour. i had those developed quite quickly and scanned to CD. i absolutely love a number of pictures on those rolls. however, there remains the black and white Tri-X. it's just sitting there waiting to be developed. since that trip, i have also amassed another half-dozen or so rolls, which are neatly aligned in sequential order of when they were shot. of the rolls i have developed, i've done next to nothing with those shots. i've printed maybe 3 pictures, and even fewer contact sheets. and yes, i have a dark room in my basement. fortunately, the total cost of installation was low.
i've come to realize i am a product of the 21st century. at times i feel awkward using a film camera in public. i feel like, at this stage in the game, using film is almost a cliche. from my perspective, i try to avoid cliches as much as possible. even if it means not being able to benefit from an excellent medium. not only this, but my desire to use film photography to stay off the computer also hasn't worked. instead i find myself manipulating old digital photos or scanning the internet for new and exciting works of others.
and there are the practical nuisances of film: loading film reels (serenity now!!), calculating exposure times when printing, spending hours trying to get one decent print. then having to repeat the entire process in the event that you want to reproduce your work for a friend.
what does this mean? i'm not sure whether i want to continue down this path of using film.
i've recently purchased a GRD III, which i absolutely love to use. i find myself using the skills i previously acquired with my Leica so there is at least one benefit. i also find myself using my dad's d80 at times. the same is true with using that camera - i feel more comfortable changing exposure, metering, etc. now that i've had my Leica.
yes, this thread is basically me rambling about my experience with film. my original intent in posting this was to get people to convince me to go film or digital, but i'm satisfied enough just typing this out.
if you have similar thoughts, or want to touch on anything i've written, feel free.
that's all for now i guess.
T
early this year, when i was looking back at all of my digital shots from the previous year (using either a canon 7d or nikon d80) i noticed that i lacked something. a lot of my shots were out of focus. a lot of shots just seemed to lack what a lot of people call mojo. in some respects, they were simply snapshots using an expensive and large camera.
after doing some reading online, i unearthed what some may call the slow camera movement (admittedly, this movement permeates all facets of life - food, sex, work, etc.). it got me thinking about framing, about exhaling while taking shots, and about focusing on more than just taking a picture and moving on. it got me thinking about the process of photography.
at the time, i believed that my greatest option was to sell my digital equipment and take a step back in time. i probably could have afforded to keep both (and surprisingly, my wife almost convinced me to do just that), but i decided it was better, creatively, if i just sold everything and turned over a new page.
enter the Leica m6.
although i had a smattering of nikon film stuff - a nikkormat, lenses - all inhereted from my ex-pro photographer dad, i felt the urge to purchase a leica. everyone said how different they were. whether it was for the lack of viewfinder blackout (or whatever its called), or whether it was for the greater ability to use the rangefinder to patiently observe your scenery and wait for that "decisive moment". not to mention how a leica feels in hand. that much is certainly true. its a marvelous machine. but this matters not if the machine sits parked inside of its bag, longing to be used.
all of these answers are among the more obvious for choosing a Leica. the more specific reason, for me, was that it provided me a blank slate to try my slow photography experiment.
and, like all experiments, i learned something through the process. i learned to frame, think about the picture, and then exhale while i took a picture. i learned the importance of 1/focal length to avoid camera blur. i learned that you needn't review all pictures on screen to ensure accuracy. whatever happens happens. with digital i learned to expect every picture to be perfect, for if it wasn't i could just take another picture and perfect it. with film, you simply can't do that. even if you take 100 frames of the same scene, you can never be certain that one will be perfect. or at least to your own liking.
i'm not sure if its a function of film or just a function of caring less, but i started to find that image sharpness and other useless details of a photo that are discussed on forums seemed remarkably insignificant. the technical (read: EXIF) qualities seemed to matter less and less.
but then i realized something. using film takes time. and ambition. this summer i went on vacaction. i primarily used my m6. i shot about 10 rolls of film, four of which were colour. i had those developed quite quickly and scanned to CD. i absolutely love a number of pictures on those rolls. however, there remains the black and white Tri-X. it's just sitting there waiting to be developed. since that trip, i have also amassed another half-dozen or so rolls, which are neatly aligned in sequential order of when they were shot. of the rolls i have developed, i've done next to nothing with those shots. i've printed maybe 3 pictures, and even fewer contact sheets. and yes, i have a dark room in my basement. fortunately, the total cost of installation was low.
i've come to realize i am a product of the 21st century. at times i feel awkward using a film camera in public. i feel like, at this stage in the game, using film is almost a cliche. from my perspective, i try to avoid cliches as much as possible. even if it means not being able to benefit from an excellent medium. not only this, but my desire to use film photography to stay off the computer also hasn't worked. instead i find myself manipulating old digital photos or scanning the internet for new and exciting works of others.
and there are the practical nuisances of film: loading film reels (serenity now!!), calculating exposure times when printing, spending hours trying to get one decent print. then having to repeat the entire process in the event that you want to reproduce your work for a friend.
what does this mean? i'm not sure whether i want to continue down this path of using film.
i've recently purchased a GRD III, which i absolutely love to use. i find myself using the skills i previously acquired with my Leica so there is at least one benefit. i also find myself using my dad's d80 at times. the same is true with using that camera - i feel more comfortable changing exposure, metering, etc. now that i've had my Leica.
yes, this thread is basically me rambling about my experience with film. my original intent in posting this was to get people to convince me to go film or digital, but i'm satisfied enough just typing this out.
if you have similar thoughts, or want to touch on anything i've written, feel free.
that's all for now i guess.
T
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Jobin33
Established
Wow, Im glad you directed me to this thread. Sounds like quite the debacle. I am also a "digital child" and find many film users my age to be hipsters. Nonetheless I love the look of film. The more I look at film the more I see how it differs from digital. With film come caveats. To some the process of using film is half, if not more, the fun. I am not at that stage because I am a new user of film. Your story shows me that even if you did not enjoy your film experience 100%, you still walked away with some knowledge about photography and yourself. So I would call it a success, not a failure. Thanks for the read!
-Elliott
-Elliott
Roger Hicks
Veteran
How can people tell whether you're using a film camera or a digital camera? So why would the film camera make you feel uncomfortable?
If you're happier with digi, go digi. The purpose of photography is to take pictures, not to purify the soul through suffering. As Granny Weatherwax says, "Tell me where it says 'ought'".
Cheers,
R.
If you're happier with digi, go digi. The purpose of photography is to take pictures, not to purify the soul through suffering. As Granny Weatherwax says, "Tell me where it says 'ought'".
Cheers,
R.
Teuthida
Well-known
IMO, your experience with your Leica is less about your Leica and more about The use of film. And yes, shooting, developing and printing film is a much different (and in my mind , rewarding) experience than is shooting digital. And yes, if you came of age during the digital era, shooting film with a manual camera will teach you many things about the practice of photography. And yes, Leica's are fun cameras to use, although I don't subscribe to the well-worh theory that Using one will endow the experience with some mystical element absent when using any other manual film camera.
whtchocla7e
Member
You could have reached the same conclusions after shooting with a dirt-cheap Olympus OM-1 or any other film camera buried in the landfills of time.
I think you approached your experiment wrong. Too many expectations, too fast (in part due to starting out with Leica gear).
I think you approached your experiment wrong. Too many expectations, too fast (in part due to starting out with Leica gear).
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Ummmm.... Possibly. On the other hand, trying to 'live up to' a Leica might make some people try harder than working with a camera where they don't have high expectations. Doesn't have to be a Leica, of course: a Nikon F might be another great choice. But trying to shoot with a legendary camera, rather than something like an Olympus, might inspire some people more.
Yes, I know this will being hate mail from Olympus addicts, but really, either you're one of a very small group who have a very high regard for Olympus SLRs, or you can think of other old and now inexpensive cameras you'd rather have (Pentax SV, Nikkormat...). The point is, none of them is a legend in the same way as an M-series or Nikon F.
Cheers,
R.
thegf
Established
i shared this with my wife and her response: "just keep your Leica - it's a classic."
and that is what i'll do.
and that is what i'll do.
Jobin33
Established
Smart woman.
shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
T,
You're not the first who tried film (all the way to printing, good for you!) and found out that you don't enjoy it.
I followed almost exactly the same steps as you did, and I came out loving film *especially* printing.
All good! now you can back up your choice of using digital only with your experience. That is better than parroting what others said, yes?
Keep shooting, digital or film.
You're not the first who tried film (all the way to printing, good for you!) and found out that you don't enjoy it.
I followed almost exactly the same steps as you did, and I came out loving film *especially* printing.
All good! now you can back up your choice of using digital only with your experience. That is better than parroting what others said, yes?
Keep shooting, digital or film.
KM-25
Well-known
Huh...seems like you put an awful lot of stock in the gear...
Something to consider: Not everyone who buys a camera is destined to become a real photographer.
Something to consider: Not everyone who buys a camera is destined to become a real photographer.
Spicy
Well-known
i too followed a similar path, but also came out with fairly the opposite conclusion. as a kid in his mid-20s, i also grew up almost exclusively with digital, but i've found that it's gotten to be too much. maybe i'm rebelling against the digital revolution -- my D90 with it's beautiful 85 1.4G sits looking pretty on my bookshelf, collecting dust. however, to be fair, a good deal of that has to do with a split-prism focus screen that was installed slightly mis-aligned, being incredibly annoying to either line things up in the split prism and take an out-of-focus picture, or intentionally misalign the image in the finder...
my path went Sony P&S, Nikon D200, D90, Nikon FG-20 (effectively by accident), my father's F that he bought new in college, Leica IIIc, and finally M4-P.
i've come to love the fully mechanical cameras -- they have a feel about them that the digital cameras lack with their planned obsolescence. i also enjoy the inherent permanence of film when you hit the shutter release. you pay for mistakes and do-overs. with digital, while the masters will always be amazing (% of shots taken vs. keepers), it seems that one can luck into nice shots simply by taking a billion of them. the ability to experiment free of consequence is nice, but when people just run around with a computer thinking for them, where's the fun/art in that?
i also like that i can head out with a roll of TMAX 400 and just by guestimating, get a roughly usable exposure.
were there a fully mechanical camera that happened to have a sensor instead of film, i'd certainly entertain using that, but none of the manufacturers see such a small market as worthwhile.
film, for me, is a better mix of art and science, where digital has become too heavily reliant on science. likewise, if there were a fully manual digital camera, i'd give that a try as well. no P mode, no A mode, no S mode. just dials for shutter, aperture, and ISO, with a button for the shutter release. maybe a meter, though, as sensor are less forgiving than B&W.
my path went Sony P&S, Nikon D200, D90, Nikon FG-20 (effectively by accident), my father's F that he bought new in college, Leica IIIc, and finally M4-P.
i've come to love the fully mechanical cameras -- they have a feel about them that the digital cameras lack with their planned obsolescence. i also enjoy the inherent permanence of film when you hit the shutter release. you pay for mistakes and do-overs. with digital, while the masters will always be amazing (% of shots taken vs. keepers), it seems that one can luck into nice shots simply by taking a billion of them. the ability to experiment free of consequence is nice, but when people just run around with a computer thinking for them, where's the fun/art in that?
i also like that i can head out with a roll of TMAX 400 and just by guestimating, get a roughly usable exposure.
were there a fully mechanical camera that happened to have a sensor instead of film, i'd certainly entertain using that, but none of the manufacturers see such a small market as worthwhile.
film, for me, is a better mix of art and science, where digital has become too heavily reliant on science. likewise, if there were a fully manual digital camera, i'd give that a try as well. no P mode, no A mode, no S mode. just dials for shutter, aperture, and ISO, with a button for the shutter release. maybe a meter, though, as sensor are less forgiving than B&W.
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Arlen
photographe d'exception
Problem solved: Carry your digital camera and your Leica Film camera with you at all times(at least for a while). For those times you do not have the patients for film or feel embarassed, pull out your digital.
For the times you are in love with what you are composing pull out your Leica.
For the times you are in love with what you are composing pull out your Leica.
thegf
Established
perhaps i did, but as i said, i've certainly learned something from the process.
it's quite possible that i learned i am not a "real photographer," as you say. i think i am OK with that - given that that term is devoid of any substance. my aspiration is to take pictures that i am happy with, and pictures i can share with others.
i'm not in in for the money, though, as i have a normal day job that compensates me well enough to not worry about experiments such as this. as well, my day job is a stressful, and in some ways it sucks the life out of me. photography is a form of escape.
finally, to suggest that i am aspiring to be a "real photographer" merely by buying a camera is far from the truth. sure, i could buy something cheap and then work into it, but why bother if i can afford to try a Leica (or whatever other camera)?
thanks to everyone else who contributed to this discussion. i appreciate it.
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Contarama
Well-known
Not enough data to tell...get a M9!
thegf
Established
ha! no way. i'd much sooner get another DSLR. i don't think i could ever justify $6000+ on a camera body.
Jobin33
Established
If the m9 were sub 4k I would own one, as im sure everyone else would as well. Keep your m6 and run it til it breaks.
jm51
Member
thegf, sounds to me like you're not keen on doing your own processing. If that's true, sack it and give the job to those that do like to mess with chemicals.
I've just got (free) samples from BPD Photech and tbh I don't see the point of me ever doing wet printing again after seeing what they can do.
Looking back, the most fun I had with photography was being out with my kids and a p+s Olympus pen half frame. Never had to focus it and never got a shot I didn't like.
Whichever way gives you the most fun is the way to go imo.
I've just got (free) samples from BPD Photech and tbh I don't see the point of me ever doing wet printing again after seeing what they can do.
Looking back, the most fun I had with photography was being out with my kids and a p+s Olympus pen half frame. Never had to focus it and never got a shot I didn't like.
Whichever way gives you the most fun is the way to go imo.
Archiver
Veteran
It looks to me that you love the act of photography itself and you love the results, but you find home developing and printing troublesome, and you don't like what you perceive to be the embarrassment of 'using film' in public.
While we all have consensus definitions of everyday objects and their purposes, like chairs are for sitting, cars are for driving and cameras are for taking photos, we all have varying personal associations as well. One guy might think that his pimped out black Escalade is the most beautiful thing he's ever owned. He thinks about sitting in it with a sense of pride and imagines that it shows that he's 'made it'. Someone else might think it's a gaudy waste of money and that the owner has no taste. Yet others might just think 'car' and nothing more.
Many years ago, when cellphones were becoming more popular, one of my friends had a violent hatred of them. I asked him if he ever thought of getting one, and he said definitely not, as he associated them with those 'show off yuppies who talk loudly on them'. I didn't see a cellphone like that at all, more as a simple tool to call home and others if necessary. He was unnecessarily caught up in what others thought, rather than what personal utility he could gain from it.
As for shooting film. I have no idea what kind of associations you have with it, apart from it seeming to be a cliche. I'm wondering if you've considered what a cliche it would be to avoid using something enjoyable and beneficial just because you're overly concerned about how you think others might perceive you?
I can just see it now. You pull out your M6, and immediately every single pair of eyes on the street turns to look at you. Big thought balloons appear over their heads and words appear inside them: "Oooooh, look at the HIPSTER! I bet he really doesn't like using film, he's just using it to be COOL. I bet he likes to eat GLUTEN FREE and reads KEROUAC, not because it's healthy or interesting, but because he thinks its COOL..." I don't think this is really what is going on, do you?
Chances are that a very rare one or two might think you're a tryhard hipster phag, which says more about their judgemental mindset than anything about what you are doing. Some might look and think it is interesting. And most will have no opinion whatsoever, because unlike on RFF, the rest of the world doesn't really care what kind of camera you use.
I have about five rolls of Ilford in the fridge, waiting for me to finally get out the dev tank for twelve months, so I know about the reluctance to process. As much as I enjoy shooting film I also find it difficult to get past things that I find a bit tedious. After all, I can load a batch of raws into Lightroom, hit Export and have a cup of tea and read a book while dozens of images come out. With film I have to stick hands in a bag or sit in a dark wardrobe; manipulate a roll without getting fingerprints on it; thread it into the spool; fill the sink with water, use a thermometer, time things exactly, mix some chems, agitate agitate agitate ... Save that process for things that really mean a lot to you. Perhaps its special times with family or friends, maybe it's something else. And if you really don't like the process, just get someone else to do it.
While we all have consensus definitions of everyday objects and their purposes, like chairs are for sitting, cars are for driving and cameras are for taking photos, we all have varying personal associations as well. One guy might think that his pimped out black Escalade is the most beautiful thing he's ever owned. He thinks about sitting in it with a sense of pride and imagines that it shows that he's 'made it'. Someone else might think it's a gaudy waste of money and that the owner has no taste. Yet others might just think 'car' and nothing more.
Many years ago, when cellphones were becoming more popular, one of my friends had a violent hatred of them. I asked him if he ever thought of getting one, and he said definitely not, as he associated them with those 'show off yuppies who talk loudly on them'. I didn't see a cellphone like that at all, more as a simple tool to call home and others if necessary. He was unnecessarily caught up in what others thought, rather than what personal utility he could gain from it.
As for shooting film. I have no idea what kind of associations you have with it, apart from it seeming to be a cliche. I'm wondering if you've considered what a cliche it would be to avoid using something enjoyable and beneficial just because you're overly concerned about how you think others might perceive you?
I can just see it now. You pull out your M6, and immediately every single pair of eyes on the street turns to look at you. Big thought balloons appear over their heads and words appear inside them: "Oooooh, look at the HIPSTER! I bet he really doesn't like using film, he's just using it to be COOL. I bet he likes to eat GLUTEN FREE and reads KEROUAC, not because it's healthy or interesting, but because he thinks its COOL..."
I don't think this is really what is going on, do you? Chances are that a very rare one or two might think you're a tryhard hipster phag, which says more about their judgemental mindset than anything about what you are doing. Some might look and think it is interesting. And most will have no opinion whatsoever, because unlike on RFF, the rest of the world doesn't really care what kind of camera you use.
I have about five rolls of Ilford in the fridge, waiting for me to finally get out the dev tank for twelve months, so I know about the reluctance to process. As much as I enjoy shooting film I also find it difficult to get past things that I find a bit tedious. After all, I can load a batch of raws into Lightroom, hit Export and have a cup of tea and read a book while dozens of images come out. With film I have to stick hands in a bag or sit in a dark wardrobe; manipulate a roll without getting fingerprints on it; thread it into the spool; fill the sink with water, use a thermometer, time things exactly, mix some chems, agitate agitate agitate ... Save that process for things that really mean a lot to you. Perhaps its special times with family or friends, maybe it's something else. And if you really don't like the process, just get someone else to do it.
thegf
Established
i will admit that my fear of being judged as cliche was a bit overstated. i guess my point is that i feel a slight bit of discomfort in carrying around, and using, a film camera. i think it is actually more deep rooted; my dad, as a former pro, switched to digital. everyone in my family shoots digital (whether pro or just snapshots at christmas, etc.). so when i pull out a film camera, i get the common response of "why bother with film". unfortunately, this mentality has taken its toll on me, and i start to think the same thing. (consider a bully who tells his victim he is stupid. over time, the victim thinks he is stupid. yes, that's a crass analogy, but it is certainly apt.)
but then every time i pick up my m6 just for a fondle (not necessarily to shoot), i enjoy how it feels. the sounds it makes. but should i even be thinking about this? to make a further analogy, its like the guy who buys a brand new mercedes but doesn't drive it. is that the function of photography? to have a nice camera but feel afraid of taking nice pictures?
the more i see photos taken with a 5D + 50L or 35L, the more i think my decision has been made, and i should get rid of the m6. but then i touch my camera, and its more confusion.
i think this is the epitome of first world problems.
but then every time i pick up my m6 just for a fondle (not necessarily to shoot), i enjoy how it feels. the sounds it makes. but should i even be thinking about this? to make a further analogy, its like the guy who buys a brand new mercedes but doesn't drive it. is that the function of photography? to have a nice camera but feel afraid of taking nice pictures?
the more i see photos taken with a 5D + 50L or 35L, the more i think my decision has been made, and i should get rid of the m6. but then i touch my camera, and its more confusion.
i think this is the epitome of first world problems.
Corto
Well-known
Oh man.....The angst.....
I'll just refer you to a previous response of mine that was in a thread with a similar amount of self doubt....http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1762720&postcount=13
I'll just refer you to a previous response of mine that was in a thread with a similar amount of self doubt....http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1762720&postcount=13