Leica M10 sensor?

[Odmit]

Thought you guys might find this interesting, checked and i didnt see it posted anywhere else here

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/f...dc047fa699ba1b10095a77b854848bd&topic=62356.0

http://www.teledynedalsa.com/sensors/products/sensordetails.aspx?partNumber=FTF6040C

"Specifically designed for professional digital still applications, Teledyne DALSA's 24 megapixel full frame CCD is one of our high resolution image sensors, setting new standards in imaging performance.

35mm film compatible image format (36 x 24mm2)
24M active pixels (6000H x 3988V)
RGB Bayer pattern
Microlenses with wide angular response
Variable electronic shuttering
High sensitivity, high dynamic range (>71dB)
Low dark current and low fixed pattern noise, low readout noise
Mirrored and split readout
Perfectly matched to visual spectrum"

 

[BobYIL]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]As I tried to comment days ago on an FM forum, this sensor is rather for the industrial cameras like the ones JAI, Avigilon, Lumenera, etc., for mainly survey and monitoring applications. The sensor in concern has a limited SNR of around 70dB which is not different than the KAF10500 (the one on the M8). I do not believe that Leica would opt the CCD route again as the new APS-C sensors (DXO rating) are claiming dynamic ranges better than the Phase One IQ180 or color depth of 24 bits and ISO6400 has become norm for 2012. The new Sony sensor employed on the Nikon D800/800E brought a totally new dimension to the FF concept.


Time slips away fast in the digital universe and Leica AG's problem is not the sensor alone... Now multi-engined processor units, carbon-fiber shutters capable of 400K actuations are developed. Over-50 point AF circuitries capable of focusing in less than 1/10 second, 91.000 pixel metering sensors are being offered.. Note also the processor engines: Expeed belongs to Nikon, Digic to Canon, Bionz to Sony, developed by themselves! Proprietary chips; whoever develops something noteworthy keeps it for themselves to compete and survive.

Employing a second class Copal shutter, a third-world display, a fossil metering system, subcontracting all electronics and software to Jenoptik, having no digital technology of their own and operating with a huge overhead, I think Solms today is confronted with a wider matrix of issues than seeking for an appropriate sensor.



[/FONT]

 

[---f]

new sensor is a sony, won't be an M10. It will be called MX, and referred to as Max, as in Mad Max, and it also refers to the price that Solms has determined the asian market will bear. $10,000.

 

[swoop]

There will be an M10 but I shudder to tink what the price will be for what will assuredly be a sensor less capable than than what other camera makers are offering for 1/3rd the price.

 

[jsrockit]

There will be an M10 but I shudder to tink what the price will be for what will assuredly be a sensor less capable than than what other camera makers are offering for 1/3rd the price.

I think you are confusing capability with only one element of a sensor's ability... i.e. high ISO. High ISO aka "the Holy Grail"

 

[noimmunity]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]
Employing a second class Copal shutter, a third-world display, a fossil metering system, subcontracting all electronics and software to Jenoptik, having no digital technology of their own and operating with a huge overhead, I think Solms today is confronted with a wider matrix of issues than seeking for an appropriate sensor.
[/FONT]

A sound like the rustling of the wind, the sudden gleam of metal...Afro-Samurai strikes again!

 

[ajuk]

It'll be made in partnership with Google and have its own app store.

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

Before the yelling begins, let's all sum it up with: "shame on Leica!" and "Nikon is better".

Done.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Before the yelling begins, let's all sum it up with: "shame on Leica!" and "Nikon is better".

Done.

Dear Gabriel,

Your suggestion certainly saves a great deal of time, and removes most of the need for understanding physics, commerce, or anything else much.

Cheers,

R.

 

[sojournerphoto]

Dear Gabriel,

Your suggestion certainly saves a great deal of time, and removes most of the need for understanding physics, commerce, or anything else much.

Cheers,

R.

🙂


10 chara

 

[ajuk]

Leica don't distinguish naming schemes between film and digital models, unlike, you know... every other camera company. Maybe the M10 will be the replacement for the M7 before the digital M11.

 

[lofiphoto]

I think you are confusing capability with only one element of a sensor's ability... i.e. high ISO. High ISO aka "the Holy Grail"

but actually is holy grail 🙂 with a lot of resolution...why dont push photography also in low light...when in film era was impossible?

i preffer high iso then resolution....D3s sensor its the best for me

 

[jsrockit]

but actually is holy grail 🙂 with a lot of resolution...why dont push photography also in low light...when in film era was impossible?

i preffer high iso then resolution....D3s sensor its the best for me

There is nothing wrong with high ISO. I like it. However, to say a sensor is no good because it's high ISO is noisy isn't completely true. The M9's sensor is quite beautiful at low ISO. Not everyone needs high ISO. Most people's photos are not taken at iso 3200-6400 I would gather.

 

[jaapv]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]As I tried to comment days ago on an FM forum, this sensor is rather for the industrial cameras like the ones JAI, Avigilon, Lumenera, etc., for mainly survey and monitoring applications. The sensor in concern has a limited SNR of around 70dB which is not different than the KAF10500 (the one on the M8). I do not believe that Leica would opt the CCD route again as the new APS-C sensors (DXO rating) are claiming dynamic ranges better than the Phase One IQ180 or color depth of 24 bits and ISO6400 has become norm for 2012. The new Sony sensor employed on the Nikon D800/800E brought a totally new dimension to the FF concept.


Time slips away fast in the digital universe and Leica AG's problem is not the sensor alone... Now multi-engined processor units, carbon-fiber shutters capable of 400K actuations are developed. Over-50 point AF circuitries capable of focusing in less than 1/10 second, 91.000 pixel metering sensors are being offered.. Note also the processor engines: Expeed belongs to Nikon, Digic to Canon, Bionz to Sony, developed by themselves! Proprietary chips; whoever develops something noteworthy keeps it for themselves to compete and survive.

Employing a second class Copal shutter, a third-world display, a fossil metering system, subcontracting all electronics and software to Jenoptik, having no digital technology of their own and operating with a huge overhead, I think Solms today is confronted with a wider matrix of issues than seeking for an appropriate sensor.



[/FONT]

So they are - like consolidating the profits from the most successful camera they ever built and finding ways to expand production to keep up with demand...Serious issues indeed🙄
It may have escaped your notice that the S2 is equipped with a proprietary
Leica processor that allows multichannel processing.
And DxO rating? DxO is claiming to measure sensors whilst in reality they measure camera output including all incamera filecooking. Not very reliable imo.
Most benefits you mention are of absolutely nil interest for a Leica M. 500 AF points in 1/1000th second? So what?

 

[BobYIL]

So they are - like consolidating the profits from the most successful camera they ever built and finding ways to expand production to keep up with demand...Serious issues indeed🙄
It may have escaped your notice that the S2 is equipped with a proprietary
Leica processor that allows multichannel processing.
And DxO rating? DxO is claiming to measure sensors whilst in reality they measure camera output including all incamera filecooking. Not very reliable imo.
Most benefits you mention are of absolutely nil interest for a Leica M. 500 AF points in 1/1000th second? So what?

What Solms is trying to produce in a year, the Sendai factory of Nikon planned to turn out the same number of the D800s a week: 30.000! A week! and only D800, apart from the other models.

It is not something to appreciate to keep the output low and then to feel proud of “our lenses are being sold for more than the MSRPs”.. We remember many times in the past that Leica used to issue rebates to reduce the stocks of lenses and bodies in their distributors hands. I have lived through up and downs in Leica’s history since the 60s and also remember how they were close to bankruptcy at least once. (Do you know that the average production figures of the most popular 35mm lenses from Leica had hardly exceeded 5.000 a year as average? And the 35/1.4 Summilux pre hardly over 500?)

A Zeiss Ikon rangefinder complete sells for some $1.600.. A D800 is taking preorders for $3.000. Do you think that a Leica should cost more than these two combined together, i.e. $4.600? Frankly!… (Soon a FF rangefinder-like something will show its head from the east.)

In the 60’s and 70’s we were buying Leicas because they were the fastest cameras available. The professionals -even after the SLRs began to be the standard for photojournalists- were still using the M bodies with 50 or wider lenses. We were proud of the short shutter lag of our M bodies: always less than 20ms.. Today within the duration of the shutter-lag of the M9 (80ms) the new generation cameras are able to autofocus and shoot! It may be nil interest for some however the majority is not thinking so. (Do not even touch to the hi-ISO comparison!)

Nikon could have issued the price of the D800 as $5.000 and still be having people lined up waiting for it.. Opportunism vs engineering, they did not go the Sigma SD1 way... Engineering is being able to implement science and technology to the benefit of human beings with least cost; this is appreciable... Have you ever thought what would the D800 cost if it was produced by Solms? (Over $20K?). BTW, I love my M-Leicas as some of them are from the 60s and 70s and still operating flawlessly. They remind me sometimes of the mentality differences between Wetzlar and Solms, although they are only 7 kilometers apart.

 

[jsrockit]

What Solms is trying to produce in a year, the Sendai factory of Nikon planned to turn out the same number of the D800s a week: 30.000! A week! and only D800, apart from the other models.

It is not something to appreciate to keep the output low and then to feel proud of “our lenses are being sold for more than the MSRPs”.

Exactly why the Leica costs more than the Nikon... they aren't made in the same numbers and are not made in a mass produced type of way. I'm sure Leica would love to step up production and capitilize on lens sales instead of seeing people capitilize in the used market. They are not a huge camera manufactuer like Nikon. I think you know this all already, but ...

 

[BobYIL]

Exactly why the Leica costs more than the Nikon... they aren't made in the same numbers and are not made in a mass produced type of way. I'm sure Leica would love to step up production and capitilize on lens sales instead of seeing people capitilize in the used market. They are not a huge camera manufactuer like Nikon. I think you know this all already, but ...

Sure but Leica was always a small manufacturer compared to the Japanese counterparts in Wetzlar days too however this is the first time I note some prices at stratospheric levels. For example the 35/1.4 Summilux pre I bought for $262 (new in the 70s), for the same amount I would be buying 200 rolls of Tri-X then. What makes 200 rolls of Tri-X today, say around $1.000. Yep, I find it quite convenient.. Double of it is understandable.. But 5 times of it means in my book nothing to do with engineering, from there on "Hermes" category begins.

Shortly, in most "older" eyes Leica has lost it's engineering character...

 

[jaapv]

I have a strong suspicion you haven't even tried taking a photograph with an M9. In fact I am amazed at the number of people ditching their Nikon etc. system for the M digitals despite the price difference for exactly the reasons you claim don't exist.

 

[BobYIL]

I have a strong suspicion you haven't even tried taking a photograph with an M9. In fact I am amazed at the number of people ditching their Nikon etc. system for the M digitals despite the price difference for exactly the reasons you claim don't exist.

I do not buy cameras on myths, I test them.. Checked the M8 and found it not up to the class of my Leicas.. not worth the price tag.




Japan sells over 10 Million interchangeable lens cameras a year, meaning that worldwide the total number of users probably be over 100 million. Some of them would buy Leica too, maybe 0.01% in total and this is quite normal, the same as the traditional Leica users buying or switching to the other brands..

 

[dreilly]

Just a point...it's not like the current batch of Japanese-made sensors are ONLY good at HIGH ISOs. They're generally pretty wonderful all around, I can't imagine what there is complain about at lower ISOs, either. The Nex 5N has a very weak AA filter and yields extremely sharp results. I was using it side-by-side with the M8 and when pixel-peeping they offered comparative sharpness...using the same lenses. The Ricoh GXR's 12 mp sensor has NO AA filter and even better micro-lenses for corner performance. And it's high ISO is a generation behind the front of the pack, but still quite good. Looking at the M8's files, I don't see magic. Just a nice sensor that's quite "old" and limited in high iso shooting. What's special about the digital Ms in my mind, and now this is really the only thing, now that the GXR and 5N have proven to be quite adept with Leica M glass, is the focusing system. That ain't nothing, but some of the other superlatives heaped on the digi-Ms (super sharp no AA filter, microlenses) just aren't exclusive to those cameras any more.

Faster is always better, if you're not giving up anything (except some indefinable "beautiful file") at the lower end. There seems to be some recalcitrance at Leica and among M-philes to compete on the same field. Pop the D700 full frame sensor into the M10, take away the AA filter, micro-lens it for wides, and you'll have an incredible imaging machine. Heck, add live view capabilities, which in my work I've found quite handy at times, and maybe you'll start getting a camera worth the absurd asking price.