Leica M4 Shutter capping

[Joe878]

The easiest way to see how a shutter behaves, thanks to modernity, is to record it with your phone in Slow Motion.

leave camera on a table, shine a good light on it, and film it from
above in Slow motion. Start with 1 second, on 60th, 500th and 1000th. The video will show you all there is to be seen. This way capping and any irregularity will show up right away.

Im not exactly sure what look for. I did upload the Videos to my Flickr account if you’re interested still.

 

[Ororaro]

Im not exactly sure what look for. I did upload the Videos to my Flickr account if you’re interested still.

I also said that to me it obviously was not a camera problem.

As for video of shutter, comparing it to another Leica is key in deternining differences…

 

[Joe878]

I also said that to me it obviously was not a camera problem.

As for video of shutter, comparing it to another Leica is key in deternining differences…

I have been told the camera is the problem ad nauseam.

 

[Ororaro]

I have been told the camera is the problem ad nauseam.

By people who don’t know.

A classic.

I’ve spent north of 30k hours in a darkroom, for over 30 years, and I’ve printed over 60k prints easily… and internet people still decide to believe other newbies instead of me regarding stand development.

I’m 99.99% confident it is a not a shutter issue.

 

[GMOG]

I'm not exactly sure what look for.

You should see the pressure plate through the gap/slit between the curtains as they move across the frame. As was noted earlier, capping happens when the second curtain catches up to the first one, decreasing or even closing the gap entirely. I watched your videos and didn't see that happening. The pressure plate is visible all the way across.

Another way to look for capping is to open or remove the back panel from the camera and hold it up to a brightly lit background and release the shutter while looking through the gate. This should be done without a lens mounted. If it's capping you will see the uneven exposure, even at 1/1000. If you don't notice obvious differences across the frame then it's probably good. This method, for my eyes, is a better way to look for capping.

In your videos taken at 1/250 and 1/1000 I noticed that the second curtain bounces a bit at the end, but it does not appear to bounce so far as to expose the film again. While this may not cause an exposure problem the curtain shouldn't bounce back. It appears that the brake isn't adjusted properly. I shot slo-mo videos of the curtain action at 1/1000 in an M3 and M6 and neither show curtain bounce.

 

[Joe878]

By people who don’t know.

A classic.

I’ve spent north of 30k hours in a darkroom, for over 30 years, and I’ve printed over 60k prints easily… and internet people still decide to believe other newbies instead of me regarding stand development.

I’m 99.99% confident it is a not a shutter issue.

You should see the pressure plate through the gap/slit between the curtains as they move across the frame. As was noted earlier, capping happens when the second curtain catches up to the first one, decreasing or even closing the gap entirely. I watched your videos and didn't see that happening. The pressure plate is visible all the way across.

Another way to look for capping is to open or remove the back panel from the camera and hold it up to a brightly lit background and release the shutter while looking through the gate. This should be done without a lens mounted. If it's capping you will see the uneven exposure, even at 1/1000. If you don't notice obvious differences across the frame then it's probably good. This method, for my eyes, is a better way to look for capping.

In your videos taken at 1/250 and 1/1000 I noticed that the second curtain bounces a bit at the end, but it does not appear to bounce so far as to expose the film again. While this may not cause an exposure problem the curtain shouldn't bounce back. It appears that the brake isn't adjusted properly. I shot slo-mo videos of the curtain action at 1/1000 in an M3 and M6 and neither show curtain bounce.

Thanks for the reply, I’ll try your method when I get a chance.

 

[Joe878]

You should see the pressure plate through the gap/slit between the curtains as they move across the frame. As was noted earlier, capping happens when the second curtain catches up to the first one, decreasing or even closing the gap entirely. I watched your videos and didn't see that happening. The pressure plate is visible all the way across.

Another way to look for capping is to open or remove the back panel from the camera and hold it up to a brightly lit background and release the shutter while looking through the gate. This should be done without a lens mounted. If it's capping you will see the uneven exposure, even at 1/1000. If you don't notice obvious differences across the frame then it's probably good. This method, for my eyes, is a better way to look for capping.

In your videos taken at 1/250 and 1/1000 I noticed that the second curtain bounces a bit at the end, but it does not appear to bounce so far as to expose the film again. While this may not cause an exposure problem the curtain shouldn't bounce back. It appears that the brake isn't adjusted properly. I shot slo-mo videos of the curtain action at 1/1000 in an M3 and M6 and neither show curtain bounce.

So I took few more video clips of the shutter firing with my light box behind it. If you have the spare time to look at them I would appreciate it a lot. The videos

 

[GMOG]

So I took few more video clips of the shutter firing with my light box behind it. If you have the spare time to look at them I would appreciate it a lot. The videos

I looked at the new set of videos and they look normal to me except for the 2nd curtain bouncing back a little at the faster speeds. I agree with others that the issues visible in the images you already posted appear to be related to film processing and not the camera. If you're happy with the exposures you're getting then I'd keep using the camera and not worry about it. Personally, the bounce would bother me and I would adjust the brake but not everyone is capable of or interested in doing that kind of work (especially after paying someone else to do it).

Did you do the shutter test looking through the gate with your eyes and not the cell phone? If not, try it. Holding it up against the sky works well. Just do it for 1/500 and 1/1000. If there is uneven exposure you will see it.

Where is Sarcophilus Harrisii these days? His input on this would also be helpful.

 

[Joe878]

I looked at the new set of videos and they look normal to me except for the 2nd curtain bouncing back a little at the faster speeds. I agree with others that the issues visible in the images you already posted appear to be related to film processing and not the camera. If you're happy with the exposures you're getting then I'd keep using the camera and not worry about it. Personally, the bounce would bother me and I would adjust the brake but not everyone is capable of or interested in doing that kind of work (especially after paying someone else to do it).

Did you do the shutter test looking through the gate with your eyes and not the cell phone? If not, try it. Holding it up against the sky works well. Just do it for 1/500 and 1/1000. If there is uneven exposure you will see it.

Where is Sarcophilus Harrisii these days? His input on this would also be helpful.

Thanks for all your help. I would love keep using however it’s not really usable these photos aren’t that bad, I have few rolls of film I shot through it that are completely ruined. The photos I posted are developed a different labs too. The camera is in absolute immaculate shape on the outside too. I’m learning towards selling it now and buying a new or used MP. It’s just honestly not worth this headache anymore.

 

[GMOG]

I have few rolls of film I shot through it that are completely ruined.

You should show us a few images from those ruined rolls. I'm curious.

 

[Mute-on]

Thanks for all your help. I would love keep using however it’s not really usable these photos aren’t that bad, I have few rolls of film I shot through it that are completely ruined. The photos I posted are developed a different labs too. The camera is in absolute immaculate shape on the outside too. I’m learning towards selling it now and buying a new or used MP. It’s just honestly not worth this headache anymore.

If it’s faulty, you be having to sell it at a discount regardless. Why not just send it to DAG and get it fixed once and for all? Anecdotally, if it can be put right, DAG will be able to do it.

All this speculation is a bit of a waste of time.

As for an MP, it is my most used film M camera, and I couldn’t endorse it more highly. If nothing else, I find the built-in light meter very convenient. It feels otherwise almost identical to my M2 in use.

Good luck!

 

[Joe878]

If it’s faulty, you be having to sell it at a discount regardless. Why not just send it to DAG and get it fixed once and for all? Anecdotally, if it can be put right, DAG will be able to do it.

All this speculation is a bit of a waste of time.

As for an MP, it is my most used film M camera, and I couldn’t endorse it more highly. If nothing else, I find the built-in light meter very convenient. It feels otherwise almost identical to my M2 in use.

Good luck!

I’ve already sent it to two different repair shops, at this point I’d only feel comfortable sending to Leica. I need some sort of warranty, as the last repair shop which is very well known flat refused to take the camera back and said it was “too old”.

 

[Mute-on]

I’ve already sent it to two different repair shops, at this point I’d only feel comfortable sending to Leica. I need some sort of warranty, as the last repair shop which is very well known flat refused to take the camera back and said it was “too old”.

Leica is not better than the established experts for film M repair. I’ve only used Kanto Camera in Japan. Their work is immaculate and they do accept repairs from overseas.

I hope you find a solution!

 

[Joe878]

Leica is not better than the established experts for film M repair. I’ve only used Kanto Camera in Japan. Their work is immaculate and they do accept repairs from overseas.

I hope you find a solution!

I’m not saying they’re better, but I have had bad experiences with the last two places. So I’m certainly being very cautious about where I send it next. I’ve spent close to a thousand dollars on repairs that have done nothing to fix the problem.

 

[Beemermark]

DAG gives a 90 day warranty. Plenty of time to develop film to see if it's fixed. In 40 years of using DAG I've never had to have one returned. Also if DAG says it's not the camera then it's not the camera. I think DAG has way more experience and the correct tools than Leica in Germany has.

 

[GMOG]

I’ve spent close to a thousand dollars on repairs that have done nothing to fix the problem.

Please show us a few images that conclusively demonstrate the problem you are having with your M4. The curtain bounce is an indication that not all is right but I'm not sure that it would ruin entire rolls of film. I'd like to see the problem before adding anything else to this conversation.

 

[Joe878]

Please show us a few images that conclusively demonstrate the problem you are having with your M4. The curtain bounce is an indication that not all is right but I'm not sure that it would ruin entire rolls of film. I'd like to see the problem before adding anything else to this conversation.

I’ll do that tonight.

 

[Joe878]

DAG gives a 90 day warranty. Plenty of time to develop film to see if it's fixed. In 40 years of using DAG I've never had to have one returned. Also if DAG says it's not the camera then it's not the camera. I think DAG has way more experience and the correct tools than Leica in Germany has.

thanks for your input, I may send him a email soon.

 

[Joe878]

Please show us a few images that conclusively demonstrate the problem you are having with your M4. The curtain bounce is an indication that not all is right but I'm not sure that it would ruin entire rolls of film. I'd like to see the problem before adding anything else to this conversation.

hello, so I’ve scanned a few photos from this roll, now at the time I kind knew what was going so I just went out and shot the photos and marked the shutter speeds down. Sure enough I got the exact results I expected.

Link

 

[Coldkennels]

hello, so I’ve scanned a few photos from this roll, now at the time I kind knew what was going so I just went out and shot the photos and marked the shutter speeds down. Sure enough I got the exact results I expected.

Link

The horizontal striping on this one still makes me think the issue is with the actual edge of the shutter, as I mentioned in post #8 in this thread. It's a lot less extreme than some examples I've seen, but it's the only thing I can think of that would create those horizontal lines. And, again, it makes sense that it only shows up on 1/1000 (a jagged/ragged edge to one curtain effectively reduces the gap between them in certain sections; when the gap between the shutter curtains is already that narrow, it's a much larger reduction in effective exposure time in that area than it would be at even 1/500), and it also makes sense that some technicians wouldn't spot it (the guy I rely on to fix my old screwmounts had never seen anything like it; it just doesn't seem like it's a particularly widely-known problem).

I'm seeing absolutely nothing that would constitute "capping" (i.e. uneven exposure with one end of the frame darker than the other), though.