lonemantis
Well-known
Hey everyone, I'm thinking of buying a used M8 to replace my 7D. Right now, I'm mainly trying to figure out if it will be a worthy upgrade (or downgrade) depending upon my needs. I have an M3 that I love shooting B&W with, so I already have an approximate sense of how an M body handles, but still haven't tried any digital Ms yet.
On paper, the 7D clearly blows the M8 out of the water in terms of specs, especially high ISO and megapixel count. I know, however, that megapixels aren't everything and fast glass will beat high ISO any day of the week.
The problem is that the 7D is such a big, chunky camera, even with a prime, that I never bother to take it anywhere, so it just sits collecting dust.
Anyway, my specific questions are these:
1. How does the shutter sound compare to the 7D? I've seen it compared to film Ms and the M9, but never to a DSLR in anything but anecdote.
2. Is $2100 a good price to pay for a used M from a dealer that's been fully checked over, with boxes and accessories?
3. People seem to complain a lot about the framelines, are they a lot less accurate than the M3? Those tend to work pretty well for me.
I'd appreciate any thoughts you guys have!
On paper, the 7D clearly blows the M8 out of the water in terms of specs, especially high ISO and megapixel count. I know, however, that megapixels aren't everything and fast glass will beat high ISO any day of the week.
The problem is that the 7D is such a big, chunky camera, even with a prime, that I never bother to take it anywhere, so it just sits collecting dust.
Anyway, my specific questions are these:
1. How does the shutter sound compare to the 7D? I've seen it compared to film Ms and the M9, but never to a DSLR in anything but anecdote.
2. Is $2100 a good price to pay for a used M from a dealer that's been fully checked over, with boxes and accessories?
3. People seem to complain a lot about the framelines, are they a lot less accurate than the M3? Those tend to work pretty well for me.
I'd appreciate any thoughts you guys have!
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$2100 for a checked out camera with box is a good price. Be sure to check shutter actuations, and get a warranty even if it costs extra.
The framelines- the 75mm and 90mm framelines are the ones with the margin. If you use a 75mm and 90mm lens, you get a lot of extra space in the image. Not a big deal as you have a preview. NOW: I use an 85mm lens with the 75 framelines, and a 105 with the 90mm frames. "Works for me", almost 100% accuracy.
Shutter- not as loud as some make out. Use a half-case with the M8, and the sound is dampened. Much quiter than my Nikon D1 and Nikon E3.
The framelines- the 75mm and 90mm framelines are the ones with the margin. If you use a 75mm and 90mm lens, you get a lot of extra space in the image. Not a big deal as you have a preview. NOW: I use an 85mm lens with the 75 framelines, and a 105 with the 90mm frames. "Works for me", almost 100% accuracy.
Shutter- not as loud as some make out. Use a half-case with the M8, and the sound is dampened. Much quiter than my Nikon D1 and Nikon E3.
filmtwit
Desperate but not serious
I'd say no, mainly because the chip is old and mediocre by today's standards. Now add the price tag of $2k+ and you're better off spending your money on most anything else. If you really must have this old of a digital camera, then an RD1 is gonna run you half as much.
Atom
Molecular.Atom
If your 7D is collecting dust and you feel more comfortable carrying a smaller camera with you then I say do it. Get a Voigtlander 35mm f1.4 and you have a small compact winning combo. 2nd what Brian said about the longer framelines, otherwise I don't seem to have a problem (I do have the M8.2 though.)
I notice myself carrying around the M8 far more often than a dslr for everyday use. The $2100 price seems about right and even a competitive price. Get a warranty if you can.
I notice myself carrying around the M8 far more often than a dslr for everyday use. The $2100 price seems about right and even a competitive price. Get a warranty if you can.
1joel1
Well-known
I sold my R-D1 and bought an M8. As much as I loved my Epson, the M8 blows it away. The chip might be older as far as newer gens, but it still gives first rate shots that easily match newer chips. $2100 is a really good and fair price for an excellent condition M8 with box and all. If you don't like it, I would imagine that you can easily get your money back as they are selling for more on eBay. I haven't any issues with frame lines as mentioned earlier since there is a preview.
JMO,
Joel
JMO,
Joel
f16sunshine
Moderator
Yes it is worth getting and the price you found is good. No it will not replace your 7D. If you ever do close-up or Mid- Long tele work you'll miss the reflex.. I love my Rangefinders both small and medium format, film and digital (small format). All that said my Slr/dslr(s) would be the last cameras to go if I had to clean house.
Leica0Series
Well-known
Someone on this forum once compared the M8 shutter sound to a stapler, and that sounds about right to me. It's louder than I would like, but not loud enough for me to do much about it, although I have been pondering the Ricoh GXR module.
In other shutter sound news, I attended a 9/11 memorial concert last week at the Kennedy Center in D.C. It was a choral performance and then a performance of Brahm's Requiem. There were a few media folk in the back shooting with DSLRs, Nikon D3s, I believe. They were noisy as hell. I was about 30 feet or more in front of them and they nearly ruined some parts of the performance; whenever the conductor's hand came up a certain way they'd all clack away back there. People were turning and looking, and not in a good way. The M8 would have been virtually silent compared to those things.
In other shutter sound news, I attended a 9/11 memorial concert last week at the Kennedy Center in D.C. It was a choral performance and then a performance of Brahm's Requiem. There were a few media folk in the back shooting with DSLRs, Nikon D3s, I believe. They were noisy as hell. I was about 30 feet or more in front of them and they nearly ruined some parts of the performance; whenever the conductor's hand came up a certain way they'd all clack away back there. People were turning and looking, and not in a good way. The M8 would have been virtually silent compared to those things.
OurManInTangier
An Undesirable
The M8 has taken such a hammering over the years since its release. Many of the points are justified, certainly justified in making a point of them if not necessarily continually banging that point into the ground.
I tend to use 28, 35 and 50mm lenses on mine and have no issue with the framelines - they're not as good as those on my M6s' but work well enough and I tend to be given a little more room to crop the edges if need be, which to me is fine.
The high ISO 'thing' can be an issue, certainly compared to most DSLRs' and from what I've seen even to the M9. However, I find your post processing can play a large part in the finished look which may be something to think about. The shutter release noise will never be an issue, the sound of the camera recocking may be, how the M9 compares in this regard I don't know.
Personally I think it really comes down to two things 1. your budget and 2. will you make the most of the budget you've just spent. Similar as they sound hopefully you understand what I mean. I've recently had some money 'freed up' and had to sit down and think seriously where I needed to reinvest it most ( it was always going to be invested in some kit) and I've lusted after the comparative simplicity of the M9 (no IR filters for each lens, full frame etc etc.) In the end I knew I could live with my M8 easily enough for a few years yet, the added expense of the M9 against the improvements over the M8 didn't stack up for me...though I knew I needed a new 24-70 f2.8 and a new back up body for work, both of which I could get for the price of the M9.
If you can I'd suggest going along to a RFF meet near you and having a play with somebody else's....at least they'll be no nasty surprises that way.
Good luck and I hope your decision makes you happy
I tend to use 28, 35 and 50mm lenses on mine and have no issue with the framelines - they're not as good as those on my M6s' but work well enough and I tend to be given a little more room to crop the edges if need be, which to me is fine.
The high ISO 'thing' can be an issue, certainly compared to most DSLRs' and from what I've seen even to the M9. However, I find your post processing can play a large part in the finished look which may be something to think about. The shutter release noise will never be an issue, the sound of the camera recocking may be, how the M9 compares in this regard I don't know.
Personally I think it really comes down to two things 1. your budget and 2. will you make the most of the budget you've just spent. Similar as they sound hopefully you understand what I mean. I've recently had some money 'freed up' and had to sit down and think seriously where I needed to reinvest it most ( it was always going to be invested in some kit) and I've lusted after the comparative simplicity of the M9 (no IR filters for each lens, full frame etc etc.) In the end I knew I could live with my M8 easily enough for a few years yet, the added expense of the M9 against the improvements over the M8 didn't stack up for me...though I knew I needed a new 24-70 f2.8 and a new back up body for work, both of which I could get for the price of the M9.
If you can I'd suggest going along to a RFF meet near you and having a play with somebody else's....at least they'll be no nasty surprises that way.
Good luck and I hope your decision makes you happy
Sensors, like most chips, undergo "rev levels" as they go through their production lifecycle. A late production M8 or M8.2 is likely to have a later rev level of the sensor. My M8 is late production, and the sensor does quite well at ISO 1250. I use it at 2500, noise is present. The M9 is much better in this regard. It also cost more.
M8 at ISO 2500:
M9 at ISO 2500:
M8 at lower ISO's:
At ISO 640 and lower, you will not notice much difference in image quality between an M8 and an M9 - except number of pixels. 1250 and 2500- you will notice a difference.
The BESt thing about this "old" m8, it can take my 75 year old lenses.
Like this 1936 Uncoated Carl Zeiss Jena 5cm F1.5 Sonnar:
But everyone knows that those old lenses aren't worth owning because the new ones are so much better...
M8 at ISO 2500:
M9 at ISO 2500:
M8 at lower ISO's:
At ISO 640 and lower, you will not notice much difference in image quality between an M8 and an M9 - except number of pixels. 1250 and 2500- you will notice a difference.
The BESt thing about this "old" m8, it can take my 75 year old lenses.
Like this 1936 Uncoated Carl Zeiss Jena 5cm F1.5 Sonnar:
But everyone knows that those old lenses aren't worth owning because the new ones are so much better...
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OurManInTangier
An Undesirable
I use D3s' for work and am often amazed at quite how noisy they can be in quiet and/or sombre situations. I'll often wish I was using a RF....though I stand by my comment about the auto recocking on the M8:angel:
furcafe
Veteran
I agree w/your reasoning that a lower-spec camera that you actually use is better than a higher-spec camera that sits on a shelf, provided $2100 isn't a big economic stretch for you.
As far as your specific questions:
1. I agree w/what has already been posted, i.e., M8 is louder than a film M, but still quieter than most dSLRs (also, when using the "discreet" mode, added by the recent firmware upgrades, you can postpone the re-cocking).
2. Based on what I sold my M8 for here in DC a few months ago (well-worn, no warranty), I think $2100 for 1 from a dealer w/warranty is an excellent price.
3. Depends on how much you rely on the framelines & your typical shooting distance(s), see my post in this thread: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110519. Personally, I didn't notice a big difference from my modern M bodies (M7, etc.), but I shoot @ mostly closer distances (usually under 5m).
As far as your specific questions:
1. I agree w/what has already been posted, i.e., M8 is louder than a film M, but still quieter than most dSLRs (also, when using the "discreet" mode, added by the recent firmware upgrades, you can postpone the re-cocking).
2. Based on what I sold my M8 for here in DC a few months ago (well-worn, no warranty), I think $2100 for 1 from a dealer w/warranty is an excellent price.
3. Depends on how much you rely on the framelines & your typical shooting distance(s), see my post in this thread: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110519. Personally, I didn't notice a big difference from my modern M bodies (M7, etc.), but I shoot @ mostly closer distances (usually under 5m).
Hey everyone, I'm thinking of buying a used M8 to replace my 7D. Right now, I'm mainly trying to figure out if it will be a worthy upgrade (or downgrade) depending upon my needs. I have an M3 that I love shooting B&W with, so I already have an approximate sense of how an M body handles, but still haven't tried any digital Ms yet.
On paper, the 7D clearly blows the M8 out of the water in terms of specs, especially high ISO and megapixel count. I know, however, that megapixels aren't everything and fast glass will beat high ISO any day of the week.
The problem is that the 7D is such a big, chunky camera, even with a prime, that I never bother to take it anywhere, so it just sits collecting dust.
Anyway, my specific questions are these:
1. How does the shutter sound compare to the 7D? I've seen it compared to film Ms and the M9, but never to a DSLR in anything but anecdote.
2. Is $2100 a good price to pay for a used M from a dealer that's been fully checked over, with boxes and accessories?
3. People seem to complain a lot about the framelines, are they a lot less accurate than the M3? Those tend to work pretty well for me.
I'd appreciate any thoughts you guys have!
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kehng
Established
Having owned an M8 and now an M9, I must say that the improvement is incremental rather than being a whole different class above. The UV/IR thing is a non issue (i sometimes used normal UV filters and got away with it - especially on the street). It feels nearly the same and even the quieter shutter business is a load of crap as the M9 sounds fairly similar to me still. I also believe sensors haven't had exponential improvements over the last few years. It's the lenses that matter more to me. As long as you're not looking for A2 prints and above (which I sometimes need) you'll probably not even notice the difference in prints. Pixel peeping is for photo perverts anyway....
Robin Harrison
aka Harrison Cronbi
I think if people made camera buying decisions on the basis of empirical evidence in the form of prints rather than spec sheets and pixel peeping, the M8 would have kept far more of its value.
Shutter sound compared to DSLRS? Less slap, but a bit more clunk, and if you enable the discreet mode, far less whir. The price you mention seems very reasonable. As for the framelines, I've had both the M8 and M8.2, and it was never a big deal for me. In fact, I quite enjoyed the fact that on the M8 the 35mm frameline was also very usable for the 40mm summicron.
Shutter sound compared to DSLRS? Less slap, but a bit more clunk, and if you enable the discreet mode, far less whir. The price you mention seems very reasonable. As for the framelines, I've had both the M8 and M8.2, and it was never a big deal for me. In fact, I quite enjoyed the fact that on the M8 the 35mm frameline was also very usable for the 40mm summicron.
umcelinho
Marcelo
I've never had an M8, so I'm not sure if this can be an useful advice or not, but the two things that put me off from getting an M8 are the higher iso performance and the need for UV/IR filters. I like shooting in low light situations. Using filters leads to reflections, and the high iso performance would also be a setback.
I believe the high iso is not much of an issue, as I've compared iso 1600 shots from the M8 with iso 1600 shots from my R-D1 and seems to not differ too much. In real life I usually go with iso 800. But the reflections are still there.
I couldn't justify spending $1000 more on a camera that would be very similar (at least to me) to the R-D1 and wouldn't bring me any great advantage, as 6mp is enough for me. Being able to use a 28mm to get the 35mm equivalency would be a plus, also with the 28mm Summicron the 35mm equivalent combo would be smaller and faster than what I use, R-D1 with 21/2.8 Biogon. A plus for me was that the R-D1 accepts the DR Summicron, but I'm selling it for hardly ever using it.
If you usually use filters, the M8 is a more robust yet smaller camera. It has framelines down to 24mm, which is a plus, though the R-D1 has the 1:1 viewfinder. About shutter noise... R-D1's is more like "KLENK" and M8's is a bit like "KLOK", which is a bit more silent but both do bring some attention in silent environments, for street it won't really make a difference... comes down to personal preference, I guess.
I've bought an X100 to give it a try, great high iso, compact size, 35mm equiv, f2, it might be an option if you like 35mm FL and don't mind it not being a rangefinder.
I believe the high iso is not much of an issue, as I've compared iso 1600 shots from the M8 with iso 1600 shots from my R-D1 and seems to not differ too much. In real life I usually go with iso 800. But the reflections are still there.
I couldn't justify spending $1000 more on a camera that would be very similar (at least to me) to the R-D1 and wouldn't bring me any great advantage, as 6mp is enough for me. Being able to use a 28mm to get the 35mm equivalency would be a plus, also with the 28mm Summicron the 35mm equivalent combo would be smaller and faster than what I use, R-D1 with 21/2.8 Biogon. A plus for me was that the R-D1 accepts the DR Summicron, but I'm selling it for hardly ever using it.
If you usually use filters, the M8 is a more robust yet smaller camera. It has framelines down to 24mm, which is a plus, though the R-D1 has the 1:1 viewfinder. About shutter noise... R-D1's is more like "KLENK" and M8's is a bit like "KLOK", which is a bit more silent but both do bring some attention in silent environments, for street it won't really make a difference... comes down to personal preference, I guess.
I've bought an X100 to give it a try, great high iso, compact size, 35mm equiv, f2, it might be an option if you like 35mm FL and don't mind it not being a rangefinder.
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johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
If you are planning to shoot color in the M3 as well and want to share lenses with the M8, I'd advise against it.
The continuous filter mounting/umounting was what killed it for me, it drove me nuts.
That, and the reflections off those filters, on a sunny day it was like having a pink searchlight on the camera, people would actually look up to find out what pink flash they just saw when I raised the camera to my eye...
The continuous filter mounting/umounting was what killed it for me, it drove me nuts.
That, and the reflections off those filters, on a sunny day it was like having a pink searchlight on the camera, people would actually look up to find out what pink flash they just saw when I raised the camera to my eye...
I pixel peep with the M8 when hacking lenses. The M8 image is a bit crisper than the M9 at low ISO, makes it easier to check focus.
Like this 1961 J-3.
Wide-open on the M8, at F1.5 and ISO 160.
This is after taking the lens apart, cleaning, lubing, and custom shimming it for the Leica.
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M8, ISO 1250, Jupiter-3 Wide-Open at F1.5,
"Mixed Lighting", Night shot, pretty much a stress test for Dynamic Range in the image.
Another, ISO 2500.
ISO 640:
auto-White balance does a good job.
"Mixed Lighting", Night shot, pretty much a stress test for Dynamic Range in the image.
Another, ISO 2500.
ISO 640:
auto-White balance does a good job.
A warranty is only half of the equation...don't forget to account for the fairly long repair times if you ever have to use it.
Jubb Jubb
Well-known
its crazy to spend the money on an M8 if you aren't going to get Leica glass.
I made the jump and it is worth it, im still adjusting to the camera, but it is a fun little machine.
can you buy warranties? As i bought my M8 this year without one...
I made the jump and it is worth it, im still adjusting to the camera, but it is a fun little machine.
can you buy warranties? As i bought my M8 this year without one...
ramosa
B&W
But the RD1 has some important limitations as compared to the M8
I use an M8, and it is certainly beyond my capability as a photographer. I may opt for an M10 in a year or so, but that's definitely a matter of want, not need.
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