Leica M9 FF-CCD corrosion - A most satisfactory conclusion

[burancap]

All the above is true, but I suspect that for many it means that Leica is a no go area for digital. Personally, I will not be contemplating a digital Leica for at least another 5 years...

You are correct. I know you are. But, I sit here still on the fence. My heart says one thing and my mind another. I want a FF M, but I need an A7II ... while dreaming of a FF XF.

 

[Pioneer]

This discussion reminds me of a saying we have had out west for a great number of years.

"Don't look a gift horse in the mouth."

Just enjoy your fortune now. A day or two ago I was looking forward to having to pay at least $600, not including the shipping and insurance on the camera, for a new sensor for my M9. If the sensor was still good, which I have every expectation that it is, then the cost potentially went up the longer I owned the camera.

Now it appears that I will be in line for a new sensor and it will cost me nothing but the shipping and insurance. I really am not too worried how they came to their decision but it suits me just fine since I had no intention of ever selling my two M digitals.

Whether or not I buy another will depend on the circumstances at the time. Maybe Zeiss Ikon, Cosina Voigtlander or someone else will decide to build one in the meantime. That would certainly have an impact on my decision making.

Meanwhile, will the good light always be with you and your photographs be many. Have a great holiday season.

 

[noimmunity]

Yeah, makes me feel they can back out of it later. However, in the short term this sounds like a good solution. They felt the pressure and responded. Not a bad outcome.

The one thing that really addresses the concrete needs of most M9 owners--repair turnaround time--is conspicuously absent from Leica's official response. So they have kind of "backed out of it" from the get go.

I wonder how people feel about sensor repairs, either permanent or temporary, that take 3-4 months? Or again, about being simply unable to plan in advance how much time the repair turnaround will take? How much of that frustration translates into upgrades is a question that only Leica can answer, but from the user's point of view, it's basically "upgrade-bait".

 

[noimmunity]

Now it appears that I will be in line for a new sensor

The operative word here is "in line"...

FWIW, my notion of gratitude is that it doesn't depend on fortune, good or bad. I'm always urging myself to feel grateful. For that very reason, urging others to feel grateful would be nothing but bad faith on my part.

 

[splitimageview]

Word is, it's 3 month turn-around...as in TODAY...this is most certainly going to stretch to a lot more.

In addition to this 'goodwill' Leica should beef up their tech team pronto so these repairs can be expedited.

As for the complaints that the 'only reason they did this was because of fear of losing business.'

To that, I respond thusly:

"Duh."

I will also say that none of this really surprises me. Leica and digital have been a train wreck from the beginning. DMR, M8 UV/IR, SD card incompatibilities, LCD glass issues, inability to source M8 parts, go/no go phantom 'sensor upgrade' programs, sensor failures... even the M240 has not been immune: loose lugs...and wonky white balance/colors.

 

[newsgrunt]

A smart move would be to discretely offer some customers (maybe those who don't mind a long turnaround time) an M240 loaner. Get them hooked, then offer a good trade in value on their M9...hook, line and sinker 😉

 

[Pioneer]

The operative word here is "in line"...

FWIW, my notion of gratitude is that it doesn't depend on fortune, good or bad. I'm always urging myself to feel grateful. For that very reason, urging others to feel grateful would be nothing but bad faith on my part.

No. The operative words for me were "free new sensor."

Time I got...money not so much.

Of course the way I understand it you can send them $200 or so and move to the front of the line (or close) if time is the more important issue for you.

As for bad faith, if I mistakenly urged you to be grateful, I do apologize.

 

[willie_901]

After some reflection - the contrast with the M8 initial release debacle is worth mentioning.

With the M8's release everyone was joyful and excited. I know I was. I planned to order a M8 in a few months after an investment matured. Then photos with purple color cast artifacts stared to appear. Back then we were dependent on a handful of reviewers who valued their relationship with Leica. Or maybe they were just intimidated. Or maybe they just didn't understand IR contamination (I certainly didn't before the M8). Initially many claimed no worries because with a simple PS Action all will be well. Leica was silent. Before long it was obvious IR contamination affected more than just synthetic fabrics and there was no post-production solution. So, Leica apologized and eventually distributed free IR lens filters.

At the time I was crushed as I wanted to own a digital rangefinder. And I could afford one. But I decided to just give up on that plan. My impression was some reviewers were aware of the problem and even discussed it with Leica pre-release. Yet they did not write about the IR issue at first. To me this meant the reviewers were hesitant to upset Leica and, or Leica told them not to worry because the production cameras would not have this problem. I decided with regret I would never be a Leica customer. Not only could I not trust Leica, I lost confidence in the reviewers and experts. Back then, I felt there was no way to get an authentic account of Leica digital bodies.

In 2014 the customers completely controlled the situation after Leica's initial a formal policy announcements on M9 delamination replacements. What a change! Leica reversed their policies very quickly. There were no experts, reviewers or even bloggers directly involved. Instead photographers expressed their dismay and disappointment without hesitation. Hardly anyone made excuses for Leica's actions. In less than a week the M9 delamination story expanded beyond the ream of niche photography forums. Leica made their policy revisions just in time. Instead of dragging on and on, as the M8 IR issue did, the whole thing was over as quickly as it began. This is progress. Leica's M9 customers now know they will eventually have a sensor that will not delaminate. Not that it matters in the least to anyone but me, my respect for Leica owners is greatly increased.

I doubt the M9 delamination story will ever make it to Business School classes... but it should.

 

[willie_901]

...

Of course the way I understand it you can send them $200 or so and move to the front of the line (or close) if time is the more important issue for you.

Wow! Is this $200 expediting fee confirmed?
😱

 

[Pioneer]

Wow! Is this $200 expediting fee confirmed?
😱

Don't know for sure since I have never used it but it was mentioned by JAAPV on the l-camera forum discussion on the M9 sensor white spots.

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica...nge-white-spots-m9-sensor-42.html#post2840390

I believe it was Post #828

 

[DavidKKHansen]

Wow! Is this $200 expediting fee confirmed?
😱

I've previously sent in (analog) Leica equipment for service/modification and yes, they do offer a fee to have the equipment serviced quicker (guaranteed even). I remember them to have two pricing options, both were a bit too much for me.

EDIT: I found the price estimate from Leica back when I had an M7 modified. Here were the additional details offered:

() fast service-your repair will be completed within 5 working days from placing of your order (up to 12.00). The additional cost
for this is 110,00 EUR + Tax

() express servicerepair will be completed within 2 working days from the placing of order (up to 12.00). The additional cost for this is 200,00 EUR + Tax

() no fast service or express service required

 

[VertovSvilova]

Don't know for sure since I have never used it but it was mentioned by JAAPV on the l-camera forum discussion on the M9 sensor white spots.

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica...nge-white-spots-m9-sensor-42.html#post2840390

I believe it was Post #828

fwiw, I know that the express service is available at Wetzlar through Leica AG CS. But I'm not 100% sure that Leica NJ offers this. It might be worth emailing them and asking. EDIT: it appears that the post above me implies that Leica NJ does offer express service..... that's good to hear.

And the service is only good if the parts are in stock. If there is a shortage of sensors, you can't speed up the process. And with something like this sensor goodwill program, it might not be applicable anyway. It may be a while down the road after the dust settles that sensor replacement will be routine and this particular service process is efficiently established.

I also feel that Leica should consider offering free UPS pickup for cameras with failed sensors (Nikon did this and the shutter replacement service on all D600 had zero out-of-pocket expense for owners.)

 

[NazgulKing]

This is a solution that should be satisfactory, but I don't see how it could be called "goodwill".

Leica have already demonstrated that the entire digital line before the M240 was simply customer beta-testing. The fact that people were being charged for sensor replacement in the past even while a mountain of growing evidence over a very long time was showing an unusually high defect rate/attrition rate does not sound like "goodwill" to me. To be fair, there were also many stories of sensors on out-of-warranty bodies that were replaced for free, but this exchange, which was often cited as proof of goodwill, was actually simply the minimum that the company should have done.

The terms of the current solution proposed by Leica are vague. What constitutes an "attractive" upgrade option? Is a "permanent solution" to the M9 sensor problem even possible?

I suspect that neither of these will pan out. And the amount of time required for replacement service, which has been an issue in the past, is left simply unaddressed.

My admiration for Leica's ability to propose an entirely vague solution that satisfactorily restores brand image far surpasses my estimation of the "goodwill", not to mention reliability, of the brand.

I would have been happier if not for the fact that delamination issues were well known as far back as 2012 and before. Sensor replacement issues have been known for many years. Some "new" sensors barely last a year before delamination. A lot of this is to do with climate, I suspect, and only did the problem started reaching the northern side of the world, did Leica start to acknowledge publicly the issue.

People may applaud Leica for finally taking action, but this is an OLD problem. And it took them 2 or more years to come around to acknowledge it!

 

[Shac]

I have Leica film cameras but while I contemplated an M8 after it’s sensor problems were reported, I decided I’d probably stick to their film versions and go elsewhere for digital (in my case Nikon).

I started with a D70, then a D300 and finally a D700 – most recently Sony Nexes and an A7 (my digital bodies for Leica lenses). Nary a problem from any of these. Luckily I didn’t buy a D600 as Nikon surely dragged their feet on that fiasco. Like Leica it took web complaints to get action – www can be great.

What surprises me with Leica’s declared and perceived goal of ultimate excellence, is why they didn’t go to the best available sensor maker, especially after their “shaky” start with the M8 sensor. These days it seems that’s either Sony or CaNikon. Except for the previously mentioned D600, unless I missed something major, none of these 3 companies have had serious/major sensor problems have they?

But as indicated by others above - nothing's perfect and the companies are primarily in business to make money - just some go about it differently (I think)

 

[rscheffler]

David, where are you located? My understanding is this 2-day or 5-day paid express service is only available through Leica in Germany for EU residents.

I'd like to see a similar service, or a proper "Leica Professional Service" offered in North America.

Being a CPS member (Canon), the fast repair turnaround and availability of loaners has come in very, very handy. This is about the only thing that keeps me from wholeheartedly diving into the Leica system without also maintaining a DSLR system on the side, just in case.

I've previously sent in (analog) Leica equipment for service/modification and yes, they do offer a fee to have the equipment serviced quicker (guaranteed even). I remember them to have two pricing options, both were a bit too much for me.

EDIT: I found the price estimate from Leica back when I had an M7 modified. Here were the additional details offered:

() fast service-your repair will be completed within 5 working days from placing of your order (up to 12.00). The additional cost
for this is 110,00 EUR + Tax

() express servicerepair will be completed within 2 working days from the placing of order (up to 12.00). The additional cost for this is 200,00 EUR + Tax

() no fast service or express service required

 

[NazgulKing]

I have Leica film cameras but while I contemplated an M8 after it’s sensor problems were reported, I decided I’d probably stick to their film versions and go elsewhere for digital (in my case Nikon).

I started with a D70, then a D300 and finally a D700 – most recently Sony Nexes and an A7. Nary a problem from any of these. Luckily I didn’t buy a D600 as Nikon surely dragged their feet on that fiasco. Like Leica it took web complaints to get action – www can be great.

What surprises me with Leica’s declared and perceived goal of ultimate excellence, is why they didn’t go to the best available sensor maker, especially after their “shaky” start with the M8 sensor. These days it seems that’s either Sony or CaNikon. Except for the previously mentioned D600, unless I missed something major, none of these 3 companies have had serious/major sensor problems have they?

Compared to sensor delamination, the D600 was a really minor issue, just human psychology in the perceived notion that they have been cheated of their money led on to a ruckus on the internet. Nikon should have simply acknowledged the problem and dealt with it instead of doing the usual Asian thing of stuffing their head into the ground.

Sensor delamination leads to a sensor that will eventually be useless and replaced. I have had the joy of using Lightroom healing and cloning of cleaning out a tonne of spots which I thought was dust but apparently they were not dust; they were areas where the glue had annealed. That was back in 2013.

 

[rscheffler]

I have Leica film cameras but while I contemplated an M8 after it’s sensor problems were reported, I decided I’d probably stick to their film versions and go elsewhere for digital (in my case Nikon).

I started with a D70, then a D300 and finally a D700 – most recently Sony Nexes and an A7 (my digital bodies for Leica lenses). Nary a problem from any of these. Luckily I didn’t buy a D600 as Nikon surely dragged their feet on that fiasco. Like Leica it took web complaints to get action – www can be great.

What surprises me with Leica’s declared and perceived goal of ultimate excellence, is why they didn’t go to the best available sensor maker, especially after their “shaky” start with the M8 sensor. These days it seems that’s either Sony or CaNikon. Except for the previously mentioned D600, unless I missed something major, none of these 3 companies have had serious/major sensor problems have they?

But as indicated by others above - nothing's perfect and the companies are primarily in business to make money - just some go about it differently (I think)

You have to consider Leica's financial position back in the mid 2000s. My understanding is it wasn't good. I'm sure there are specific reasons they went with Kodak's sensors. Not only the the M8/M9, but also IIRC, the DMR and earlier S models.

There is an interview with Leica somewhere on the net where the question was asked why the 'guts' of the M9 didn't change much, if at all, from the M8, after all the problems, etc. The answer I recall is that Leica's limited resources (R&D) were stretched to the max at that time because they were developing the S2 system in-house. They couldn't internally develop it and the M9, so decided to stick with the external electronics/software supplier, since the overall framework had already been developed for the M8 and could be ported to the M9 and full frame sensor.

Considering what Leica was able to do in-house with the S2, it would have been interesting to see an in-house M9... but that's all history now. Despite all this, the M9 was a massive success and Leica is where they are now (stable and growing) very much because of this camera. It's great to see Leica intends to properly support the M9 and owners for the foreseeable future, to whom Leica owes so much of its success.

 

[VertovSvilova]

These days it seems that’s either Sony or CaNikon. Except for the previously mentioned D600, unless I missed something major, none of these 3 companies have had serious/major sensor problems have they?

The D600 wasn't really a sensor issue. And that sensor is still used in the D610 and now the D750. The Nikon sensors are made by Sony. Canon is the only in-house sensor, afaik. Even Leica uses Sony sensors in the X series (and the T, too.) As already mentioned in the post above, Leica had limited resources at the time of the M8 but had to get on the digital bandwagon quickly. I think it's correct to say that the M9 sales success helped fund the move to the current M240's modern sensor and electronics.

Being a CPS member (Canon), the fast repair turnaround and availability of loaners has come in very, very handy. This is about the only thing that keeps me from wholeheartedly diving into the Leica system without also maintaining a DSLR system on the side, just in case.

It appears that Fuji will be offering a pro service by next year. Not so sure that the Fuji mirrorless APS-C cameras are 'pro' cameras in the traditional sense, but it's good to have expedited service options.

 

[Shac]

NazgulKing - I agree the D600 problem wasn't as severe as delamination - but in both of these cases it took a lot of buyer pressure to get the manufacturers to come through

rscheffler - thanks for the insights

VertovSvilova - I was under the impression that Nikon made some (not all) of their own sensors

 

[DavidKKHansen]

David, where are you located? My understanding is this 2-day or 5-day paid express service is only available through Leica in Germany for EU residents.

Sorry, I'm located in Denmark so perhaps the express service is only available to EU residents? I sent the M7 directly to Leica in the spring of 2014, whilst they were moving to Wetzlar. Back in 2010 I had sent in an MP + lenses and I was also offered an express service then. It's tempting to use the service, but you have to remember to add 19% tax on their service prices if you live within the EU.

EDIT: it appears that the post above me implies that Leica NJ does offer express service..... that's good to hear.

My apologies that I didn't make it clear that I live in Denmark. Perhaps the express service isn't available outside of the EU. Best to contact Leica to ask if it's available, but as another poster wrote that the service depends on parts available and I'm guessing that it's easier for Leica to obtain parts for their film cameras than it is for their digital line up.