noimmunity
scratch my niche
Rather than have a single thread where detractors and advocates battle it out, I think it would be better to try having two separate threads that catalogue individual and collective response to the Leica digital RF sensor issue(s). One for the positive, one for the negative. That would allow future potential users a resource to consult before diving in to make a purchase. It might also assist other people, including marketing and R&D departments.
For myself, I really love M lenses, and very much wanted a digital solution. But for various reasons, after buying both an M8 and an M9, both new, I have decided to jump off the Leica train. Ultimately, it came down to pleasure factor. The whole reason I've been using RFs is because of the pleasure factor. Yet with all the problems I've had, the limitations of the cameras, and the costs involved, I've noticed a progressive reduction in my pleasure factor related to digital RF.
The reduction in pleasure comes from a long list of factors. Maybe I'll get into that more if and as the thread develops.
I don't have any problems with other people continuing to sing the praises of these cameras, even in the most hyperbolic terms, if that's what gets them off. I don't feel threatened by other people's pleasure (nor their displeasure for that matter). But I do have a healthy respect for safeguarding my own.
For myself, I really love M lenses, and very much wanted a digital solution. But for various reasons, after buying both an M8 and an M9, both new, I have decided to jump off the Leica train. Ultimately, it came down to pleasure factor. The whole reason I've been using RFs is because of the pleasure factor. Yet with all the problems I've had, the limitations of the cameras, and the costs involved, I've noticed a progressive reduction in my pleasure factor related to digital RF.
The reduction in pleasure comes from a long list of factors. Maybe I'll get into that more if and as the thread develops.
I don't have any problems with other people continuing to sing the praises of these cameras, even in the most hyperbolic terms, if that's what gets them off. I don't feel threatened by other people's pleasure (nor their displeasure for that matter). But I do have a healthy respect for safeguarding my own.
uhoh7
Veteran
yeah not enough bitter comments on this subject.
Maybe there should be a whole forum for digital Leica hate?
Some people just can't get over a failed relationship LOL
You promised such and such!!
You cost me x amount !!
I could never count on you!!
priceless really
Maybe there should be a whole forum for digital Leica hate?
Some people just can't get over a failed relationship LOL
You promised such and such!!
You cost me x amount !!
I could never count on you!!
priceless really
thompsonks
Well-known
How about a third thread, for those of us who are ambivalent?
uhoh7
Veteran
How about a third thread, for those of us who are ambivalent?
that would be sweet LOL
Meanwhile I writing to Leica asking they implement a new program for verbally battered M9s. New owners will be found to cherish them properly. When not in use they will be snuggled in the soft folds of a Wotancraft Ryker, or suitable alternative.
"I don't care if you delaminate once in awhile."
"You are the best, period"
noimmunity
scratch my niche
How about a third thread, for those of us who are ambivalent?
I'm against easy binary oppositions on principle! Gopher it, dude! I'd contribute!
noimmunity
scratch my niche
a new program for verbally battered M9s. New owners will be found to cherish them properly. When not in use they will be snuggled in the soft folds of a Wotancraft Ryker, or suitable alternative.
"I don't care if you delaminate once in awhile."
"You are the best, period"
This thread is not for demonizing or psychologizing users, nor is it for questioning the pleasure that others get.
Please stick to the topic. Thank you.
Pioneer
Veteran
I am just a little confused (which really isn't that surprising for me).
If the offer to replace de-laminating and corroding sensors, search for a long term solution, and an offer to upgrade if you prefer, is not satisfactory, what would be?
If the offer to replace de-laminating and corroding sensors, search for a long term solution, and an offer to upgrade if you prefer, is not satisfactory, what would be?
uhoh7
Veteran
At the very least: public flagellation.
Mass seppuku by the entire Leica corporate leadership preferred.
Even then I could never get over the outrageous injustice of Leica digital.
LOL
noimmunity
scratch my niche
Before I answer this question, I would like to point out again that this thread was explicitly set up to avoid pitched battles about the standards of satisfaction, expressly in order for those who are dissatisfied (or worse) to share that experience.
Why challenge people's negative experience as they themselves define it? If you're so satisfied and secure with your choice, why not just let people express themselves? If you're not satisfied and secure, then perhaps it would be best to remain respectfully silent while you work it out for yourself, perhaps even benefitting from the experience of others.
As for the solution offered by Leica, I don't see much of substance in it yet beyond a push to canalize virtually inevitable dissatisfaction into the upgrade path. The most concrete issues at the actual time aren't what R&D Leica is undertaking, but the actual turnaround time for sensor replacement, and the terms of upgrade. Neither of these were made clear in statements from Leica to date.
I suspect that Leica will eventually announce that a permanent solution is impossible, leaving only two choices: replacement and upgrade. Each of these solutions imposes penalties on the user, either in terms of money, or in terms of time.
anerjee
Well-known
I agree with you, but I can also understand where the OP is coming from. Digital Leicas are not for the faint of heart, and not for those who can afford just one -- several folks I know have 2 M9s, since 1 is expected to be with Leica being serviced at any given point in time.
I cannot afford that.
So while I would love to own an M9, I prefer to sit out.
I cannot afford that.
So while I would love to own an M9, I prefer to sit out.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
How about a third thread, for those of us who are ambivalent?
And let's not forget a thread about all the threads!
noimmunity
scratch my niche
And let's not forget a thread about all the threads!
Ah yes, the meta-thread.
No doubt the mod for that one thread would have to spell her name with a G instead of an m!!!
Roger Hicks
Veteran
What IS the topic, then? Given the provocative title of the thread? Is it just for non-stop bitching about Leicas, and how they've let you down? So anyone who challenges you, or says anything remotely nice about Leicas -- such as that they're quite good cameras, really -- is going off-topic?
Cheers,
R.
noimmunity
scratch my niche
Yup, that's pretty much it.
The positive remarks can all go in another thread.
I thought it would be a good idea. Debate seems fruitless to me. Yet there is a legitimate reason to explain publicly negative experiences. Why not just have two separate, parallel threads, one for negative experiences, one for positive ones?
Psychoanalysis, with which I do not always agree, teaches that nothing is more disturbing, perhaps even threatening, than the (dis)pleasure of the other. Looks like this thread is unexpectedly turning out to be a strong support of that theory.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Okay, have fun with it. What do you expect to gain from this thread, though, other than confirmation of your own prejudices? Never mind psychoanalysis: just remember the old saying, "Misery loves company". I wish you much happiness in your misery.
Cheers,
R.
nobbylon
Veteran
If people are satisfied with their cameras then it's fine to tell everyone but don't try to defend the camera and make out it's a minor complaint or two when there's evidence to the contrary including an admission by the manufacturer. Too many times there are devotees talking all sorts of rubbish about how marvellous it is. It may well be when it's working as the designer and manufacturer implied it would but in too many instances it has not.
To remain silent in the event that you are not satisfied with a product helps no one apart from a manufacturer. The only reason that Leica has offered a band aid, I didn't say permanent fix due to unknown variables, is that owners and users complained. I like many others buy on not only trial and error but also on recommendation. In the days before internet this could be a few friends etc but now it can run into hundreds and thousands of viewpoints.
I respect the views of others and if there's a problematiic product be it a camera, car, washing machine, hotel room etc etc...I am always grateful for others speaking out.
noimmunity
scratch my niche
What I expect to gain is quite simple: nothing. I've already made my decision with regards to Leica.
I was really motivated by other people, particularly those whom I see having legitimate experience and grievances, yet who are challenged each and every time they start to express such experience. I think this is as unwarranted as debate between detractors and advocates.
It's when I saw other people saying in another thread that the discussion had become boring, dull, and monotonous and therefore by implication should stop that I though that I would start this thread.
I meant it really as a community service. I have to admit, though, that it should have been done by someone else with greater standing and credit in the RFF community than myself. Yet no such person appeared, so I dutifully filled the gap.
If misery loves company, it is no less true of vanity, insecurity and practically the entire gamut of human emotions, including joy--which as I'm writing from a place that has electricity only 8 hours a day can attest to, is often an extremely selfish emotion.
Personally, I don't feel miserable in the slightest. I actually sold my Leicas before any really serious problems, such as have befallen many others, happened.
And I truly, sincerely wish that all those who continue to use and take joy in their Leicas continue to do so.
My only request is that the people who have had serious problems with their Leicas be given a forum in which the expression, in their own terms according to their own standards, be given full legitimacy. Let 'em speak, for cryin' out loud!
I was really motivated by other people, particularly those whom I see having legitimate experience and grievances, yet who are challenged each and every time they start to express such experience. I think this is as unwarranted as debate between detractors and advocates.
It's when I saw other people saying in another thread that the discussion had become boring, dull, and monotonous and therefore by implication should stop that I though that I would start this thread.
I meant it really as a community service. I have to admit, though, that it should have been done by someone else with greater standing and credit in the RFF community than myself. Yet no such person appeared, so I dutifully filled the gap.
If misery loves company, it is no less true of vanity, insecurity and practically the entire gamut of human emotions, including joy--which as I'm writing from a place that has electricity only 8 hours a day can attest to, is often an extremely selfish emotion.
Personally, I don't feel miserable in the slightest. I actually sold my Leicas before any really serious problems, such as have befallen many others, happened.
And I truly, sincerely wish that all those who continue to use and take joy in their Leicas continue to do so.
My only request is that the people who have had serious problems with their Leicas be given a forum in which the expression, in their own terms according to their own standards, be given full legitimacy. Let 'em speak, for cryin' out loud!
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
I wonder if Leica are paying attention to all the negative cyberbabble about their flagship camera? One would hope so.
I would love to be a fly on the wall at the next director's board meeting!
I don't necessarily agree with the premise of this thread but I do think that if people suddenly stop buying M rangefinders because of distrust for the product they (Leica) will be in deep doo doo!
I would love to be a fly on the wall at the next director's board meeting!
I don't necessarily agree with the premise of this thread but I do think that if people suddenly stop buying M rangefinders because of distrust for the product they (Leica) will be in deep doo doo!
Ronald M
Veteran
Why complain when no final decision has been reached. I have a 2 year old M9P, the last available one new, has less than 1000 exposures. No corrosion so far, and I am keeping it dry and clean.
I suppose I will just take the upgrade offer when I have to or maybe there will be a permanent fix, i.e. new sensor.
So lets give them a chance to see what they do.
I suppose I will just take the upgrade offer when I have to or maybe there will be a permanent fix, i.e. new sensor.
So lets give them a chance to see what they do.
Sparrow
Veteran
... that sounds way too sensible, what with all these bandwagons about
Do threads still disappear if the OP deletes the first post?