noimmunity
scratch my niche
Precisely! Not "a [most satisfactory] conclusion".
burancap
Veteran
Well, that is 2/3. The thread is spelled out in the first sentence. What a shame.
There is a lot to the problem. The whole thing is troubling and gave me enough pause to NOT buy another digital M this month. So, no conclusion for me. I am not sure what direction to head now.
There is a lot to the problem. The whole thing is troubling and gave me enough pause to NOT buy another digital M this month. So, no conclusion for me. I am not sure what direction to head now.
NazgulKing
Established
Problems if this variety have existed for over 2 years. How much longer does Leica need?
oltimer
Well-known
Just about the soundest 2 short sentence's put together on RFF in the last month.
raid
Dad Photographer
I wonder if Leica are paying attention to all the negative cyberbabble about their flagship camera? One would hope so.
I would love to be a fly on the wall at the next director's board meeting!
I don't necessarily agree with the premise of this thread but I do think that if people suddenly stop buying M rangefinders because of distrust for the product they (Leica) will be in deep doo doo!
Today I was searching online for an email for the Leica AG administration.
If you know the contact info for the CEO. let me know please.
john_s
Well-known
I think the OP's approach makes sense. I've used M film bodies for years (new and second hand) and have found them perfectly satisfying. I'd love to use my Leica lenses on a body with similar ergonomics. I could (barely) justify the expense of a new digital M, but IMO I don't have the fortitude to deal with the risk factors. Although the reports of experiences on this site may well be skewed towards bad experiences, there's enough to scare me off. Maybe in the future....?
VertovSvilova
Well-known
Both methods of responding are simply ways of coping with bad news. Either 'complaining negatively' or trying to ‘brush it off in a positive light' are different methods of dealing with an unfortunate situation. It’s how humans cope. There is nothing inherently wrong with either method. But neither side likes to hear the opposite coping strategy because it runs contradictory to the way they have chosen to deal with bad news. Owners who are angry at the situation don’t like to be told they are ‘bitching.’ And owners who employ an ‘acceptance’ strategy don’t like to be reminded that the product they like (and have spent good money on) is potentially defective.
Anyway, the flip side to complaining is that it can be seen as positive. Being critical of a company and their products keeps them on their toes and forces them to do better. That’s the good side to all the ‘negativity.’ Not too long ago, Jurgen Schrempp was the head of Mercedes. He went on a cost cutting mission diluting the quality and the brand name (buying Chrysler, a venture which ended in failure; he also attempted to acquire Mitsubishi which cost Daimler lots of cash.) He effectively tossed the quality and name recognition into the gutter. He was ousted by the board in 2005. In the meantime the brand (and a brand associated with the invention of the automobile) lost a lot of credibility with owners and potential owners and this created a big problem for Mercedes. Interestingly, the dialogue was similar to the Leica dialogue. There were those who maintained their allegiance to the brand while hoping that this was just a ‘period’ the company was going through. Then there were those who complained bitterly and vowed never to own a Daimler product again. And then there were the “Mercedes haters” who proclaimed that they knew from the beginning that a Mercedes was just an overpriced piece of crap and a company that dupes wealthy buyers with their marketing.
But in the end, the bad publicity (and reduction in sales) did force Mercedes to go on a ‘clean-up’ campaign and build a better and more reliable product. Their reliability and quality ratings have climbed back up dramatically now.
When Leica first announced that they would replace sensors at a price based on age, there was a very vocal internet response. This forced them to quickly change that policy and come back with a better one. Being highly critical of a brand can be a positive thing. And in the internet age, companies are acutely aware of how consumers perceive their products. It’s partly this perception that helps motivate them to progress and do better with their products and policies. Sitting back and giving them a 'get out of jail for free card' might not be the best strategy if one wants to see them prosper in the future. If one is not happy with the product, voicing that discontent can also bring about change.
(p.s., didn't Leica AG just recently buy Sinar? Just curious about that and what are Leica's plans for that brand name.)
Anyway, the flip side to complaining is that it can be seen as positive. Being critical of a company and their products keeps them on their toes and forces them to do better. That’s the good side to all the ‘negativity.’ Not too long ago, Jurgen Schrempp was the head of Mercedes. He went on a cost cutting mission diluting the quality and the brand name (buying Chrysler, a venture which ended in failure; he also attempted to acquire Mitsubishi which cost Daimler lots of cash.) He effectively tossed the quality and name recognition into the gutter. He was ousted by the board in 2005. In the meantime the brand (and a brand associated with the invention of the automobile) lost a lot of credibility with owners and potential owners and this created a big problem for Mercedes. Interestingly, the dialogue was similar to the Leica dialogue. There were those who maintained their allegiance to the brand while hoping that this was just a ‘period’ the company was going through. Then there were those who complained bitterly and vowed never to own a Daimler product again. And then there were the “Mercedes haters” who proclaimed that they knew from the beginning that a Mercedes was just an overpriced piece of crap and a company that dupes wealthy buyers with their marketing.
But in the end, the bad publicity (and reduction in sales) did force Mercedes to go on a ‘clean-up’ campaign and build a better and more reliable product. Their reliability and quality ratings have climbed back up dramatically now.
When Leica first announced that they would replace sensors at a price based on age, there was a very vocal internet response. This forced them to quickly change that policy and come back with a better one. Being highly critical of a brand can be a positive thing. And in the internet age, companies are acutely aware of how consumers perceive their products. It’s partly this perception that helps motivate them to progress and do better with their products and policies. Sitting back and giving them a 'get out of jail for free card' might not be the best strategy if one wants to see them prosper in the future. If one is not happy with the product, voicing that discontent can also bring about change.
(p.s., didn't Leica AG just recently buy Sinar? Just curious about that and what are Leica's plans for that brand name.)
MCTuomey
Veteran
I'm satisfied with Leica's response. It's fine and fair and balanced, in my judgment. No whining here. I bought into digital M bodies expecting challenges typical of a niche, luxury product. But now, I don't know whether I'll stay or move from Leica products. The balance may be tipping.
I like my small, carefully put together M lens selection. A lot. On the other hand, the digital M's (CCDs) are losing their appeal for me. I've put up with the known annoyances: too frequent service trips, slow write speed, mysterious lock ups, battery funk, you name it, because for more than 5 years I've liked the files and pleasure in use. It's not a decline in value, it's not worry over service life or warranty, nothing economic. It's just not fun or productive to tie myself to gear that needs this much TLC and forgiveness.
I'm beginning to believe I might do well enough with my Fuji X kit for what I've been shooting with my M gear. An X-T1 is no M camera in use. But I have fun with it and get results that make me happy, and it's lock down reliable. I'm just using my M gear less (now in the shop). Can always shoot full frame dSLR when I need it. Shoot medium format film when I need resolution and that look. And maybe keep a film M with a couple lenses for the Leica jones, not even sure. Ilford 135 delta films still look good to my eye, as do Tri-X and T-Max.
I don't know. Something's changed. It might be time to move on, embrace mirrorless , and leave behind the RF experience. No camera deserves this much consideration. Leica really needs to be drama-free.
I like my small, carefully put together M lens selection. A lot. On the other hand, the digital M's (CCDs) are losing their appeal for me. I've put up with the known annoyances: too frequent service trips, slow write speed, mysterious lock ups, battery funk, you name it, because for more than 5 years I've liked the files and pleasure in use. It's not a decline in value, it's not worry over service life or warranty, nothing economic. It's just not fun or productive to tie myself to gear that needs this much TLC and forgiveness.
I'm beginning to believe I might do well enough with my Fuji X kit for what I've been shooting with my M gear. An X-T1 is no M camera in use. But I have fun with it and get results that make me happy, and it's lock down reliable. I'm just using my M gear less (now in the shop). Can always shoot full frame dSLR when I need it. Shoot medium format film when I need resolution and that look. And maybe keep a film M with a couple lenses for the Leica jones, not even sure. Ilford 135 delta films still look good to my eye, as do Tri-X and T-Max.
I don't know. Something's changed. It might be time to move on, embrace mirrorless , and leave behind the RF experience. No camera deserves this much consideration. Leica really needs to be drama-free.
Pioneer
Veteran
You do make a good point, and when the news really got moving I was also very upset. But I do believe that the resolution as proposed by Leica is a good one. So I myself fail to see the point in this continued negativity, a lot of it from people who have either sold their cameras or never bought them. They are not proposing an alternate resolution, they are only whining.
Now, I am also aware of Leica's original response to the problems with the M8 and that they did not totally follow through as anticipated. So I am not real sure I fully trust this resolution either. But until Leica starts refusing to follow through on their promise I have no recourse than to believe them, or to sell the camera.
Sometimes honest complaints do produce good results.
Sometimes whining is just whining.
I'm not sure where we are right now, but I do know what it feels like.
nobbylon
Veteran
Complaining and being vocal is NOT whining! It's what helps make change happen and in your case may just have helped get you a new sensor when your's goes kaput.
thompsonks
Well-known
I'm really not torn between complaining or offering thanks. I've simply become ambivalent about Leica, which is quite a step backwards for me. I'm going to be comparing the next generation of Sony products to Leica's, with a critical eye. If Leica does the Mercedes kind of turn-around, that'll be fine. But I've experienced too many problems (with M8, M9, and MM) and too many delays in servicing. I've become concerned that my investment has outpaced Leica's level of product testing, quality control, and service.
Kirk
Kirk
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Another thing that leica has to be careful about is the obvious fact that there a now several full frame bodies on the market that can use M mount lenses via an adapter. And at a fraction of the price you pay for the digital M body.
uhoh7
Veteran
A fraction of the performance as well, I can tell you from personal experience.
However, I hope someday that will change.
It's funny: Leica gets all the grief for making a great performing (prior to delam) M digital body, while Zeiss, still making M lenses, skates by with no hate at all and no body either.
i'd like to see a thread: "Where the F is a digital ikon?"
LOL
MCTuomey
Veteran
Well said - succinctly too
NazgulKing
Established
I don't see why not. We owe nothing to Leica. If Leica disappeared yesterday, are we worse off? Probably. But technology marches on, as with all things, and humans simply adapt.
I for one on the other hand have always found excessive emotional attachment to mere artificial devices to be plain silly.
uhoh7
Veteran
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
LOL ... we tried that for a while and there were regular threads about it here at RFF. I like a few others actually sent Zeiss an email wanting to know if and when it was going to happen. The replies were always polite but also always negative.
And now of course they've dumped the film camera!
Pioneer
Veteran
Nobbylon, I apologize if I touched a nerve. I really wasn't referring to you...or anyone else specifically. I do however doubt it was any single one of us that caused Leica to respond.
But I do have to ask again, if the present plan by Leica is unacceptable, what would be acceptable? And why would you worry about it?
nobbylon
Veteran
I don't worry about it. However I would like to see a digital M as reliable as it should be for the cost and as supported as it should be for the length of service always hyped and promised by the company.
If it was all the above then personally I would have no problem and buy in again. The fact is that I lost faith in Leica as a company to do the above when the M8 lost it's support and parts supply after a very short life span.
I believe the 'plan' by Leica is acceptable as long as no restrictions are placed on repair to defective cameras and that there is no cost to owners who have been let down. Are we being unreasonable to expect a lifespan of 10 years or so from a digital camera? Leica owners keep getting told 'yes' it seems whilst it would appear that it's just plain luck that the Nikons and Canons etc tick on.
David Hughes
David Hughes
Hi,
But why only 10 years?
I don't like this trend to set a limited life on the cameras etc. They can still make parts for the abandoned cameras and ought to. I'm thinking of the minilux and worrying about the CL and M5's. And will we be worrying about the M7 sooner or later?
Regards, David
But why only 10 years?
I don't like this trend to set a limited life on the cameras etc. They can still make parts for the abandoned cameras and ought to. I'm thinking of the minilux and worrying about the CL and M5's. And will we be worrying about the M7 sooner or later?
Regards, David