xleic
Member
The sensors are made in usa
Leica M9 FF-CCD corrosion on sensors
- Thread starter silverbullet
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silverbullet
Well-known
A german member of the LUF found out that Leica changed last Friday on their official website the recommendations for sensor cleaning. I guess that he made screen shots to be able to document what Leica recommended before this case of sensor defects became official.
This mess will create a lot of trouble. Look at ebay - how many M9 will be sold without any statements about this situation which is an old one. Since 2013 the sensor problem exists. As common with Leica under the surface……. Remember the exploding M8 shutters.
How about dealers with stock of new M-E and 2. hand M9/MM?
This mess will create a lot of trouble. Look at ebay - how many M9 will be sold without any statements about this situation which is an old one. Since 2013 the sensor problem exists. As common with Leica under the surface……. Remember the exploding M8 shutters.
How about dealers with stock of new M-E and 2. hand M9/MM?
EdwardKaraa
Well-known
Yes, that is confirmed.
xleic
Member
Could this affect the value of the limited editions too?
xleic
Member
any link available?
EdwardKaraa
Well-known
I'm afraid that is not true. I think it is Leica's way to put at least part of the blame on users. Corrosion starts as soon as the coatings are applied, but it might take 3 months to 1 year to start showing as bubbles on the sensor, mistakenly thought to be oil drops by users. This will happen whether you wet clean or not. Aggressive cleaning to remove the unremovable drops will cause them to detach quicker, but that is not the origin of the problem.
EdwardKaraa
Well-known
silverbullet
Well-known
partly copied from the Truesense data- and handling sheet:
about cleaning this type of sensor:
Handling
It is important to never touch the cover glass with fingers or anything other than lens cleaning paper with solvent. Any mechanical contact can scratch the cover glass.
Finger grease can etch optical coatings, causing permanent damage. Gloves used during handling should be static- dissipative and powder-free. Truesense Imaging recommends a static-dissipative nitrile glove such as Ansell 93-401/402, or equivalent. Most Latex gloves have powder that can be a source of particles that contaminate the glass. Also, most gloves do not dissipate static charges, and can actually create static charges that could damage the sensor.
1. Blow off the surface of the glass with a compressed gas source. The source should not produce a net charge, and may be ionized. The gas should be dry, and may be nitrogen or air.
Caution
Compressed gas canisters should not be used. The fluid and coldness may affect the cover glass, and the gas may cause ESD events.
This operation should remove large particulates that would scratch the surface during the wiping operation. Blow as close to parallel to the glass as possible to push contaminates off the glass. Gas pressure normally incident (perpendicular to the glass surface) will act to drive contaminates into the glass, not off of the glass. This step assumes that the surfaces near the imager are also clean, so that the operation does not blow contaminates onto the glass from other places. If the sensor is mounted in a recessed surface, it may be advisable to skip this step.
Image Sensor Handling Best Practices

"2. Inspect.
Use a 7x to 10x magnifier and a good light, such as an illuminator for a microscope. If the only contaminants are particles, the previous step may be adequate to clean the glass. If the glass is now clean, skip the remaining steps.
3. Fold a lens cleaning paper to the appropriate size.
Use lens-cleaning paper (Truesense Imaging lens cleaning paper catalog # 154 6027 or equivalent) that is specifically for use on high quality optics. The paper may already be folded and mounted on a stick to form a swab. Folded paper may be secured with hemostats so that contamination from fingers is not dissolved in the solvent.
If using lens paper and hemostats, fold the wipe until one dimension is the same as the width of the cover glass. If using preformed swabs, the width of the swab should be the same as the cover glass. If the folded paper is too narrow, it will not clean the entire glass surface. If it is too wide, it can collect contaminants from the package surface or a camera surface, which can accidentally be transferred to the glass. Be sure not to touch the cleaning edge of the paper before use.
4. Wet the entire paper with solvent.
Truesense Imaging uses 200-proof ethyl alcohol.
Caution
Acetone is strongly discouraged because it attacks the resin that attaches the cover glass to the package. Methanol is not used by Truesense Imaging due to its potential toxicity and poorer cleaning properties.
The solvent should not be allowed to collect moisture, and is best if used from a standard chemistry squeeze bottle. The quantity should be enough to ensure that the paper is wet, but too much solvent will leave streaks during cleaning. Shake the paper before use to removed excess solvent. Not enough solvent will result in the paper rubbing directly on the cover glass surface without the lubrication of the solvent. This can result in scratches to the surface. Some companies offer pre-wetted paper in a sealed packet.
5. Wipe the surface once and then discard the cleaning paper.
Make sure that the paper does not contact any surface other than the cover glass, including the image sensor package or the camera. Single use of the wipe is important, because contaminants collected by the wipe will be transferred back to the glass if the wipe is used more than once. There will usually be a short trail of the solvent directly behind the paper as it wipes.
6. Inspect.
If the surface is not clean, repeat the wiping steps. If a contaminant is not removed in two or three wipes, it is possible that there is permanent damage to the cover glass. If more than one wipe is necessary, always wipe in the same direction.
Image Sensor Handling Best Practices"
about cleaning this type of sensor:
Handling
It is important to never touch the cover glass with fingers or anything other than lens cleaning paper with solvent. Any mechanical contact can scratch the cover glass.
Finger grease can etch optical coatings, causing permanent damage. Gloves used during handling should be static- dissipative and powder-free. Truesense Imaging recommends a static-dissipative nitrile glove such as Ansell 93-401/402, or equivalent. Most Latex gloves have powder that can be a source of particles that contaminate the glass. Also, most gloves do not dissipate static charges, and can actually create static charges that could damage the sensor.
1. Blow off the surface of the glass with a compressed gas source. The source should not produce a net charge, and may be ionized. The gas should be dry, and may be nitrogen or air.
Caution
Compressed gas canisters should not be used. The fluid and coldness may affect the cover glass, and the gas may cause ESD events.
This operation should remove large particulates that would scratch the surface during the wiping operation. Blow as close to parallel to the glass as possible to push contaminates off the glass. Gas pressure normally incident (perpendicular to the glass surface) will act to drive contaminates into the glass, not off of the glass. This step assumes that the surfaces near the imager are also clean, so that the operation does not blow contaminates onto the glass from other places. If the sensor is mounted in a recessed surface, it may be advisable to skip this step.
Image Sensor Handling Best Practices

"2. Inspect.
Use a 7x to 10x magnifier and a good light, such as an illuminator for a microscope. If the only contaminants are particles, the previous step may be adequate to clean the glass. If the glass is now clean, skip the remaining steps.
3. Fold a lens cleaning paper to the appropriate size.
Use lens-cleaning paper (Truesense Imaging lens cleaning paper catalog # 154 6027 or equivalent) that is specifically for use on high quality optics. The paper may already be folded and mounted on a stick to form a swab. Folded paper may be secured with hemostats so that contamination from fingers is not dissolved in the solvent.
If using lens paper and hemostats, fold the wipe until one dimension is the same as the width of the cover glass. If using preformed swabs, the width of the swab should be the same as the cover glass. If the folded paper is too narrow, it will not clean the entire glass surface. If it is too wide, it can collect contaminants from the package surface or a camera surface, which can accidentally be transferred to the glass. Be sure not to touch the cleaning edge of the paper before use.
4. Wet the entire paper with solvent.
Truesense Imaging uses 200-proof ethyl alcohol.
Caution
Acetone is strongly discouraged because it attacks the resin that attaches the cover glass to the package. Methanol is not used by Truesense Imaging due to its potential toxicity and poorer cleaning properties.
The solvent should not be allowed to collect moisture, and is best if used from a standard chemistry squeeze bottle. The quantity should be enough to ensure that the paper is wet, but too much solvent will leave streaks during cleaning. Shake the paper before use to removed excess solvent. Not enough solvent will result in the paper rubbing directly on the cover glass surface without the lubrication of the solvent. This can result in scratches to the surface. Some companies offer pre-wetted paper in a sealed packet.
5. Wipe the surface once and then discard the cleaning paper.
Make sure that the paper does not contact any surface other than the cover glass, including the image sensor package or the camera. Single use of the wipe is important, because contaminants collected by the wipe will be transferred back to the glass if the wipe is used more than once. There will usually be a short trail of the solvent directly behind the paper as it wipes.
6. Inspect.
If the surface is not clean, repeat the wiping steps. If a contaminant is not removed in two or three wipes, it is possible that there is permanent damage to the cover glass. If more than one wipe is necessary, always wipe in the same direction.
Image Sensor Handling Best Practices"
oltimer
Well-known
My heart goes out to the owners of these cameras. I was looking at a 240 recently that a store was using as a demo. To think now as I watched various lenses taken out of the case and put on this body to show the clients; and now I wonder if they had to clear off the sensor? I'm sure glad I stopped to read about this now???? I'm not buying now, and the bottom line with Leica is going to feel it too.
V-12
Well-known
Again, perspective is everything and your pity is misplaced. The nugget of information you are missing is that it doesn't affect the M240, so there is no reason not to go and buy it. And it only affects a few M9's, so the majority of people will have no need to worry.
The whole situation is being whipped up out of proportion by individuals who have had a bad experience (and that is possible with any camera system) or don't even have a vested interest, they just like to bad mouth any camera that isn't their own. And they are the vocal minority who probably flit from camera system to camera system all the time anyway and have no depth of experience as to what is normal and reliable and what is an aberration or glitch. If for instance I had owned Nikon's continuously for forty years I would probably have had my fair share of lemons, and maybe I'm just lucky, but other than one minor failure my Leica's have been super reliable and tough, including the M9.
V
If Leica has commented on it and has a plan, it is not being whipped up out of proportion by anyone. The problem is that it was a $7000-8000 camera with these issues (and in some cases is still being sold at those prices not even including special edition cameras). Please name another camera is this price category with similar issues. Leica, for many, satisfy its users emotionally as well as practically. Emotionally since they are such beautiful objects and the only digital rangefinder still being made. This generally ends up with its users using them a lot longer than most digital cameras (e.g. M8 still being used now when similarly priced DSLRs from 2005 are not as much).
EdwardKaraa
Well-known
I love it when someone who doesn't even own that camera makes remarks like this about the users 😉
For your information, this problem affects EVERY camera body that has the Kodak sensor. It's not some or a few, it is every piece ever manufactured. Normally you do a recall for such thing.
Vobluda
Well-known
oltimer
Well-known
I appreciate where your coming from on my comment. I'm up there, and my 1st M3 was purchased in '66. Several Leica's latter I'm cautious now even if I get a sniff of info. The 240 is still a lot higher in Europe than in Canada and a great buy here, and yes I was also mulling over a used M9. Nothing will change my thoughts now till I see how this unfolds in the world market and how Leica will have too respond differently than they already have. Again thank you for your comments.
silverbullet
Well-known
Bloomberg released in 2009 a statement from Kodak/Leica:
here a part which might explain the roots of problems:
"With over 18-million pixels, the KODAK KAF-18500 Image Sensor enables a new
level of image quality and performance for M-series customers. With an image
capture area that matches the size of traditional 35mm film, M-series lenses
can now be used without the imposition of artificial image cropping. Matching
this larger image capture area with the Rangefinder’s unique optical design
required a redesign of both the sensor’s pixel and microlens configuration
compared to the sensor used in the M8 camera, which Kodak was able to achieve
without compromising on Leica’s stringent image quality requirements. In
addition, the sensor incorporates a new IR-absorbing cover glass as well as a
new red color pigment for improved color fidelity and improved image quality."
here a part which might explain the roots of problems:
"With over 18-million pixels, the KODAK KAF-18500 Image Sensor enables a new
level of image quality and performance for M-series customers. With an image
capture area that matches the size of traditional 35mm film, M-series lenses
can now be used without the imposition of artificial image cropping. Matching
this larger image capture area with the Rangefinder’s unique optical design
required a redesign of both the sensor’s pixel and microlens configuration
compared to the sensor used in the M8 camera, which Kodak was able to achieve
without compromising on Leica’s stringent image quality requirements. In
addition, the sensor incorporates a new IR-absorbing cover glass as well as a
new red color pigment for improved color fidelity and improved image quality."
YYV_146
Well-known
The M is a CMOS camera and should not have these problems. Lens switching does increase the likelihood of dust, but that can be removed fairly painlessly.
silverbullet
Well-known
On the Eclipse homepage there is a certain guarantee which covers the usage of their cleaning components in case of sensor damage by wet cleaning. We learn that CCD sensors are not allowed to be cleaned with just one version. So get a new sensor, send the old one to Eclipse together with the small purchase bill of the cleaning set and take a new bag of pop corn. Look what Leica and Eclipse will tell each other and to you…...😎
http://photosol.com/swab-sizes/
http://photosol.com/swab-sizes/
x-ray
Veteran
Kodak sensors have been used in several digital systems. My Hasselblad digital back had a Kodak ccd. Hasselblad sent ewipes with the back to clean the sensor which is basically a pecpad saturated with eclipse solution. I've never heard of any issues with sensors in Hasselblad backs.
It's just a guess but I suspect the sensor in the M9 has different coatings than others.
I find it interesting my M9 sensor had problems and I never cleaned it and I purchased it new. I believe it's inherent in that model of sensor.
It's just a guess but I suspect the sensor in the M9 has different coatings than others.
I find it interesting my M9 sensor had problems and I never cleaned it and I purchased it new. I believe it's inherent in that model of sensor.
semi-ambivalent
Little to say
Maybe protection from ham-fisted photographers who obsess over that perfectly clean sensor rather than learning how to clean things up in PP. Or a finance-based control mechanism that ramps up the customer cost inversely to the remaining supply of a sensor Leica can no longer source. This is digital; this is how it will work for the foreseeable future. Unless you discover how to build 24MP sensors in your shed.
Film is not immune; Early IIIs and Ms have increasing value for their parts even if they don't function as cameras. I wouldn't be surprised if, plotted against their respective "sensor" technology's age, their respective decay rates weren't almost identical.
If you want a camera for life get an MP, or, even better, a couple M3s. 😉
s-a
I've read conflicting reports. Is anyone sure whether or not this problem affects the M8 and M8.2 ?
Stephen
Stephen
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