Leica M9 FF-CCD corrosion on sensors
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This does not seem to be an issue of the same level.
photony texas
Light Sensitive
Leica New Jersey informed me today my M Monochrom (MM) sensor is defective, confirming my observations. The good news is it will be covered under warranty. The bad news is they have no replacement sensors and are waiting on Germany. The bad bad news is I am out of my main photographic tool and it will be months I'm guessing before I get it back. The sort of good news is I have my trusty Zeiss Ikon and plenty of Tri-X along with a Ricoh GR...
I'm off shOOting 😀
I'm off shOOting 😀
Vince Lupo
Whatever
Did they give any further info regarding the defect? Did you do any 'wet' cleaning of the sensor?
photony texas
Light Sensitive
Vince, they did not give me a defect explanation but from looking at the sensor it had five pits in the surface glass that I assume were from corrosion...The camera was wet cleaned twice, once by a professional service because of an oil spot and the second time by Leica NJ when in for other service. I live and shoot in a very humid environment (Houston, Texas) but not all sure if that affected the corrosion rate. Leica NJ could not answer if the replacement sensor would be any different from the original sensor. Needless to say I wont be having the replacement ever wet cleaned if possible, I want to extend it's life as far as possible.
I sold a lot of music equipment and photo gear to get this tool and am a bit disappointed in the service life obsolescence.
I sold a lot of music equipment and photo gear to get this tool and am a bit disappointed in the service life obsolescence.
Vince Lupo
Whatever
Thanks for the additional info -- I had to have the shutter replaced on my Monochrom, so I can definitely empathize. They were superb in terms of customer service (Leica NJ), but like you, I am a bit concerned about such an expensive item having these kinds of issues so soon out of the gate. On an unrelated note, I had to get all three focusing guides replaced on my 0.95 Noctilux earlier this year -- why that happened, I haven't a clue. Thankfully the warranty covered that.
Funny how my Nikon equipment - which gets a heck of a lot more use and abuse - hasn't had anywhere near the service needs that this Leica equipment has required. I'm still hanging in there, however, as I still love the camera and its results.
Funny how my Nikon equipment - which gets a heck of a lot more use and abuse - hasn't had anywhere near the service needs that this Leica equipment has required. I'm still hanging in there, however, as I still love the camera and its results.
Michael Markey
Veteran
The current thinking on Luf suggests that the wet cleaning explanation looks increasingly like an attempt to shift the responsibility to the users .
In fact, it was the decision to use the Schott 8612 glass, which is particularly sensitive humidity, which is the issue .
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica...nge-white-spots-m9-sensor-28.html#post2836324
In fact, it was the decision to use the Schott 8612 glass, which is particularly sensitive humidity, which is the issue .
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica...nge-white-spots-m9-sensor-28.html#post2836324
x-ray
Veteran
I'm not sure why it's taken folks so long to get stirred about all the issues of the M9. The one I had was a disaster from the beginning.
You mentioned your Noctilux issues, I had two Summilux asph 50's and both were defective. One won;don't focus to infinity on any of 7 bodies and the other had the front element coming loose. The first one was simply manufactured wrong and could not be fixed. I also had a problem with my 90 apo asph. It would no work properly on my M9 even after two trips with the body to NJ totaling 12 weeks in the shop. I finally had to threaten then before getting an exchange. Where I live, Tennessee, we have a lemon law and I was one trip back to NJ from legally forcing a replacement.
My M9 and a couple of lenses spent more time in the shop than all the rest of the digital equipment I've owned since 2000 and I use it professionally too.
I'm afraid I can't say much good about Leica NJ service. Every trip up took 6-7 weeks and that's after telling them I'm a full time professional and depend on my equipment. Compare this to Nikon Professional Service where it takes a week max and even consumer service takes no more than a couple of weeks. What's wrong with they picture?
x-ray
Veteran
I'll bet if you could see the choices of glass and price of each you'd find it was the cheaper option.
I'm wondering what those of us that live in humid environments are supposed to do, never take them out of the studio?
Michael Markey
Veteran
There seems to be two reasons put forward for the choice of that particular glass ...as you suggest ... it was cheap and also that it avoided the IR issues associated with the M8.
That`s what I`ve understood from the discussion anyway.
That`s what I`ve understood from the discussion anyway.
willie_901
Veteran
I read the M9 IR sensor was expensive because it had to be atypically thin yet effectively filter IR.
It is not clear who applied the IR filter's protective coating. It may have been Schott, or another company. Perhaps the protective coating was cheap.
It is not clear who applied the IR filter's protective coating. It may have been Schott, or another company. Perhaps the protective coating was cheap.
marcr1230
Well-known
All companies have problems from time to time
Nikon had the issues with the D600 and basicallyoffered to replace the shutter and I can't remember but did they offer to buy back the camera?
Apple has a huge ongoing problem with their early 2011 MacBook pros - which they refuse to acknowledge and fix, to the point that there is a class action lawsuit against them and a petition with 25000 signatures at whitehouse.gov
All these brands have to balance reputation and customer loyalty aspects vs profits
It sounds that Leica is trying to do the right thing ,resolve this issue short of buying back everyone's camera outright
Nikon had the issues with the D600 and basicallyoffered to replace the shutter and I can't remember but did they offer to buy back the camera?
Apple has a huge ongoing problem with their early 2011 MacBook pros - which they refuse to acknowledge and fix, to the point that there is a class action lawsuit against them and a petition with 25000 signatures at whitehouse.gov
All these brands have to balance reputation and customer loyalty aspects vs profits
It sounds that Leica is trying to do the right thing ,resolve this issue short of buying back everyone's camera outright
x-ray
Veteran
I don't know anything about the Mac problem but the D600 issue didnt render the camera useless and the fix was t replacing the mirror assembly with the same defective mirror assembly. Also there's a huge difference in price and the D600 wasn't promoted as the best thing since sliced bread.
This isn't the first problem with the M9. How about cracked sensors, lockups and card incompatibility to mention a few.
IT doesn't look like replacing the sensor will keep it from happening again because, again it appears, Leica is replacing the defective sensors with exactly the same sensor that will eventually fail.
Yes many companies have problems and sometimes it takes legal action to get a fire under them.
maddoc
... likes film again.
I think Leica Camera AG is in a trap with this problem. There is no other FF CCD with this kind of microlenses and thin IR filter on the market. If they would like to switch the IR filter to a more expensive and rugged version, there might be the problem that such a different filter causes degradation of the recorded image. In this case everybody would start blaming Leica that M9 with such an updated CCD produce lower quality images. Additionally, changing the CCD design takes time for testing etc.
So offering the M240 as an upgrade does look like the best option they have right now.
So offering the M240 as an upgrade does look like the best option they have right now.
Iestrada
Well-known
I feel terrible for all leica digital owners.
I was an early film leica adopter. I have had my M2 for two three years now. I was hopping to be able to afford a digital M in the coming decades before they become fashionable. Looks like I am putting that plan on hold.
It can not possibly be a happy time for those of you affected. My sympathies.
I was an early film leica adopter. I have had my M2 for two three years now. I was hopping to be able to afford a digital M in the coming decades before they become fashionable. Looks like I am putting that plan on hold.
It can not possibly be a happy time for those of you affected. My sympathies.
Lower Digital M used prices = Buying Opportunity ?
Lower Digital M used prices = Buying Opportunity ?
Used Digital M's (all models) prices seem to have taken a hit, at least for the time being thanks to the M9's sensor problems.
For every owner saying goodbye to their digital M series and its woes, there is a new owner enjoying the lower price tag.
Stephen
PS. The term "Digital M's" when used to refer to all digital Leica M cameras is another reminder of Leica's needlessly confusing nomenclature of calling what would have been the M10 the M.
Lower Digital M used prices = Buying Opportunity ?
Used Digital M's (all models) prices seem to have taken a hit, at least for the time being thanks to the M9's sensor problems.
For every owner saying goodbye to their digital M series and its woes, there is a new owner enjoying the lower price tag.
Stephen
PS. The term "Digital M's" when used to refer to all digital Leica M cameras is another reminder of Leica's needlessly confusing nomenclature of calling what would have been the M10 the M.
VertovSvilova
Well-known
Nikon did offer a free shutter replacement service and also free sensor cleaning for life even if you're not the original owner. Those who signed up for the class action suit all got free D610 replacement cameras as their settlement. But Nikon will also offer a free D610 replacement if your D600 isn't permanently fixed with the shutter replacement and/or it's returned again for the issue and/or if you bark loud enough at them.
Apple actively ignored/denied the problem with the 2011 MacBook Pros. The laptops have an issue with the discrete graphics chip (ADM) that is directly soldered to the motherboard. The laptop switches from the integral graphics card to the discrete one depending on the computing demands (like high demand video applications.) The ADM chip and the solder will eventually fail from heat. The problem is that the replacement board fails, too. It's the same part as the original. I've had mine replaced once, but people have had several failures with new replacement boards. If you're out of AppleCare warranty, the repair is normally around $400-600. And many owners have paid two or three times for unsuccessful repairs. The class action lawsuit that was finally filed a little over a month ago is to recompense those who have had to pay out for repairs. http://appleinsider.com/articles/14...wsuit-over-2011-macbook-pro-graphics-failures
Apple really should redesign the part and do a recall. But they haven't said anything specific about anything so far even though they knew of the issue years ago. However recently they have been replacing boards free of charge, and so that means some kind of admission on their part. I'm in the class action suit to get my $500 back.
I assume Apple will just replace failing boards with more failing boards for free, and wait out the service life of these laptops. The cost of a part redesign isn't worth it even though they are sitting on $billions of cash.
It seems the Apple problem is pretty similar to the Leica issue. The part is from another vendor although it's clearly defective. There's no incentive to redesign the parts (the Leica sensor or the Apple graphics chip) since they affect out-of-production products (except for the Leica ME and MM, but I'm guessing Leica will now pull those products.) So both companies will keep on replacing the defective part with another defective part until the products live out their life.
I guess some differences here is that Apple has tons of cash and Leica is a much smaller company without that same financial resource. But Apple has been hiding from the issue (like Nikon did) and the class action suits were necessary. At least Leica is replacing the sensors for free with no questions asked. They may not be organized in making an official statement but I assume that will all happen soon. Another difference is that Leica has advertised its digital M cameras as an "investment" and "quality to last for decades" etc.. On the other hand, upgrading an Apple computer within 3 years or so is common practice and often expected. While Apple does market its products as high quality goods, it's understood by both Apple and the consumer that upgrading frequently is part of the computer ownership experience. In today's electronic photography era, Leica's persistent marketing emphasis of long life and durability, etc., probably should be re-evaluated by them. But then deviating from that might make it harder for consumers to justify the very high price of a digital Leica; the whole idea of "quality" and longevity" and an "investment for decades" is a big part of what sells.
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
Just reading this now...... and like Gabriel and JS... Wow... but I'm also not surprised - I am though, disappointed - because I do think Leica promotes itself as a luxury brand. It is, to be honest, the only "luxury" thing I own - I drive a Honda Civic (1999).. I have a Mac Pro from 2006 that's still running strong... my Epson 3800 still prints out great prints 5 years later... and those last two things are (or have become) "disposable" items to some..
Leica, once again, has got a problem on their hands and they're going to have to learn that when people pay a lot of money, they'd like, at least, a little bit of reliability for what they plunk down.
Cheers,
Dave
Leica, once again, has got a problem on their hands and they're going to have to learn that when people pay a lot of money, they'd like, at least, a little bit of reliability for what they plunk down.
Cheers,
Dave
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
FYI:
According to La Vida Leica:
http://lavidaleica.com/content/new-leica-ccdgate-scandal-afoot
Cheers,
Dave
According to La Vida Leica:
http://lavidaleica.com/content/new-leica-ccdgate-scandal-afoot
Cheers,
Dave
Jack Sparrow
Well-known
Good! Sounds like they're at least working on something... And acknowledging it. That's big.
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