Leica M9 FF-CCD corrosion on sensors

[stitchohana]

2 sensors replacement in almost 2 years (in Singapore).

1st time was black spots on the sensor, which technician said it require replacement.

2nd time was 1 red line on the right side of the sensor, send in and was told it require a change.

No warranty was given for the 2nd change and was told that there will not be any goodwill replacement even if it's a defect. I asked for more information and was told to read the forum.....

 

[EdwardKaraa]

I guess people want to decide when it becomes obsolete for themselves and not have it crap out before they are done using it. The bottom line is that the M9 is still one of the better solutions for M lenses in digital, so its a unique situation vs. typical DSLRs.

Of course, my reply is not intended at the current sensor problem, but at the remarks made earlier about Leica marketing the M9 as lasting a lifetime.

 

[Richard G]

I bought a Monochrom after owning an M9 for a couple years that had its sensor replaced and also had the "dead battery" repair. So, while I couldn't anticipate the present corrosion issue, I had no illusion that the MM would be especially reliable or without problems. If my MM needs work, then so be it. As long as I can afford it, and I continue to like the output, I'll do what it takes to keep it functioning, just like the M9.

This is my position on these two cameras exactly. The only photo-taking things I've bought since are the imminently obsolete iPhone 5s and the never obsolete Leica II. As to the M9 sensor, a comment from Gus Lazzari on photo.net raises the hope in mind that the latest batches are not so prone to the same fault. If I have to replace one, or two, some time, so be it.

 

[Pioneer]

"...utter reliability over countless years of practical use."

"...functional reliability for decades to come."

but obviously our expectations are unreasonable. The premium we paid was strictly for the thrill of owning a luxury item, for a feeling of status. :bang:

 

[VertovSvilova]

As to the M9 sensor, a comment from Gus Lazzari on photo.net raises the hope in mind that the latest batches are not so prone to the same fault.

fwiw, while Gus may be a good Leica tech, I don't think he's in the loop of current Leica operations. The official post by Leica (on the LUF forum) stated unequivocally that the sensor will be replaced with the same existing sensor (that has issues.) So there aren't any "latest" fixed batches. Although that doesn't mean that Leica might not get their sensor vendor to make changes... assuming they can figure out if there's a feasible fix both physically and financially.

 

[Lss]

Just wondering if the Epson DRF ever experienced any problems with users?

It may intermittently shoot blank images when using an old, weak battery.

There are also reports of connection issues with the articulating screen. The later models implemented a fixed screen, so this issue is limited to the cooler units. What else? The rangefinder is said to easily go out of alignment. That was never my experience, though.

 

[EdwardKaraa]

Ed,

I think I paid a premium price to buy my Leica Monochrom about two years ago. My expectation was and is that I expected to get at least 5 years of use out of my Monochrom, not the usual 3 year cycle of a DSLR. I figured also if I got 6 years of trouble free use, and if my Monochrom suddenly died and was unrepairable that I got my money's worth. I don't think my expectations really are much different than yours, except perhaps I have a slightly more optimistic view, and I never intend to upgrade in three years like you suggest.

I find the Monochrom suits me well, and if it becomes obsolete due to a new upgraded Monochrom M-body, I would simply buy the new camera and keep my MM. I think the Monochrom is what it is, and for me it will never be obsolete. I intend on shooting my MM untill it dies or can't be repaired.

I'm actually hoping that Leica comes out with a MM-240, and I welcome the possibility of a new monochrome camera that might have a bigger buffer and a new sensor.

I performed one wet cleaning inadvertently using all the cleaning supplies that Leica uses and recomends over the almosty two years of Monochrom ownership. The only other cleaning needed or required uses either the filtered blower ball made by Visible Dust, or on occassion the need of the use of an Arctic Butterfly to nudge a stubborn spec of dust. So far no signs of corrosion, and this is with the close inspection provided by the Visible Dust illuminated magnifier.

I use my Monochrom a lot and the body has some wear to the point where the covering is worn smooth in an area from my fingertips due to a grip. Some nickel plating is brassing through the black anodize, and in many ways likewise this camera has become part of me. It would be sure a loss if it ever dies or if it can't be replaced. I could see me using my Monochrom for a very long time...

For me buying another camera is a different story.

Cal

Hi Cal, yes definitely we have the same expectations but I am probably taking the more pessimistic route. The MM is moreover a special case, in that it has a monochromatic sensor that has a high performance in terms of high iso and tonal gradations. It is not likely to be improved on as frequently as with color cameras.

So let's talk in practical terms. Let's say you intend to keep your MM for 8 years which is a reasonable expectation for this particular model. Let's say you have to send your camera to Leica every two years to replace the sensor, under warranty, free of charge, and as a consequence of that, Leica has to perform the obligatory CLA implicated in the sensor change, also free of charge, despite the camera being out of warranty (but not the sensor).

Of course it is a pita to have to send the camera away every couple of years, but M users are somewhat used to this routine because of RF needs for maintenance. If Leica replaces the sensor for free each time, and does the CLA for free, I think it is reasonable expectation, and does not in any way affect your photography.

Now if Leica somehow is unable to perform this repair for free, or runs out of parts, that would be a completely different story, but at the moment, there are no indications that this would be the case.

 

[k-hawinkler]

This is my position on these two cameras exactly. The only photo-taking things I've bought since are the imminently obsolete iPhone 5s and the never obsolete Leica II. As to the M9 sensor, a comment from Gus Lazzari on photo.net raises the hope in mind that the latest batches are not so prone to the same fault. If I have to replace one, or two, some time, so be it.

Could you please provide a link? TIA.

 

[VertovSvilova]

Could you please provide a link? TIA.

Gus is a classic camera repair tech (TLC Camera Repair) but the only comments I've seen by him concerning digital M9 sensors is on photo.net where he posts often: http://photo.net/leica-rangefinders-forum/00cyut

And also here: http://photo.net/leica-rangefinders-forum/00cy0D

I don't think he's in the loop when it comes to digital Leica, but maybe there are other comments by him which are more informative out there somewhere. I know that he does have a lot of opinions about politics and religion 🙂

 

[Richard G]

Could you please provide a link? TIA.

http://photo.net/leica-rangefinders-forum/00cyut

 

[k-hawinkler]

Many thanks. AFAIK Leica has been using all alomg the same sensor assembly that is prone to corrosion, especially in humid environments. The corrosion apparently happens on the cover glass, a coating issue. That seems to be the jist of the discussion on LUF.

 

[silverbullet]

in the french Leica forum "summilux" there are good demonstration pictures of these sensor 'worms' which move across the sensor with visible traces and then blob in a circle:

end of the page:

http://www.summilux.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=66689

 

[Jack Sparrow]

If this poll is accurate, it's not looking too good for Leica... Nearly half have the sensor issue. 😵

 

[dcsang]

If this poll is accurate, it's not looking too good for Leica... Nearly half have the sensor issue. 😵

Currently that's a small sample size but if it gets extrapolated to all M9 / MM / M-P owners then ya...

The "Just buy a new M(240)...." line ain't gonna cut it.

Cheers,
Dave

 

[silverbullet]

this manufacturer got some inquiry? as mentioned in the french Leica forum:

http://www.hamamatsu.com/eu/en/index.html

to: Hamamatsu Photonics:

"Hello,

I contact you at the end of your technical information about opportunities for achievement and integration into your production lines (CCDs).

I am currently undergoing feasibility study for an activity to ensure the repair and maintenance of a sustainable product that had a flaw in the manufacturing process of a series of 50.000pièces (original Leica AG).
The problem is not solved by the brand I am looking for a company that can meet these specifications:

-receiving electronic cards with Kodak CCD sensors integrated ref .: KAF-18500, delivered without filter (faulty) Packaging Dust.

-mounting new low-pass filters by you (standards to be defined)

-réexpédition.

I invite you to contact me if your company is able to meet this demand in order to provide all the necessary details.

Best Regards,

Bertrand C. "

(finding a company that can support a component to change can be a palliative to finding a new sensor manufacturer)


I expect the answer, it does not concern me at all, it concerns more Solms, … but I think Victor, William, … there is a very large niche to take a hit"

translated by google

 

[Calzone]

Hi Cal, yes definitely we have the same expectations but I am probably taking the more pessimistic route. The MM is moreover a special case, in that it has a monochromatic sensor that has a high performance in terms of high iso and tonal gradations. It is not likely to be improved on as frequently as with color cameras.

So let's talk in practical terms. Let's say you intend to keep your MM for 8 years which is a reasonable expectation for this particular model. Let's say you have to send your camera to Leica every two years to replace the sensor, under warranty, free of charge, and as a consequence of that, Leica has to perform the obligatory CLA implicated in the sensor change, also free of charge, despite the camera being out of warranty (but not the sensor).

Of course it is a pita to have to send the camera away every couple of years, but M users are somewhat used to this routine because of RF needs for maintenance. If Leica replaces the sensor for free each time, and does the CLA for free, I think it is reasonable expectation, and does not in any way affect your photography.

Now if Leica somehow is unable to perform this repair for free, or runs out of parts, that would be a completely different story, but at the moment, there are no indications that this would be the case.

Ed,

We are kinda on the same page as far as expectations. I would be mucho happy if I got eight years out of my Monochrom without any out of pocket expense, but I am also prepaired to spend big dollars to keep it going if needed. Perhaps Leica will perform the work once or twice for free, but in the end I think a big bill would be on me. The part that will hurt the most is the possible long wait being without my MM. My gal has a fashion blog and now relies on my photography that utilizes my Monochrom. Even being without my MM for a week would be a disaster.

Now if Leica builds me another dream camera (MM-240) I'd be compelled to buy a new Leica Monochrom as a backup and not a replacement. In anticipation I have settled some debt to pre-order a new monochrome camera if the rumor posted on RFF about two months ago are true. Basically history has shown that rumours on RFF tend to be true (ie. Monochrom; M-60)

Also know that I found the problems with the Leica sensors being "Dirt Magnets" and needing cronic cleaning to be way overstated. I'm still hopeful that perhaps the topic of this thread might be another overstatement. I'm very close to two years in and have no problems, but I'm also known to be a very lucky guy. I can't help but be an optimist, but perhaps at times I can be delusional. LOL.

Cal

 

[Jack Sparrow]

Currently that's a small sample size but if it gets extrapolated to all M9 / MM / M-P owners then ya...

The "Just buy a new M(240)...." line ain't gonna cut it.

True, the sample size is somewhat small still... But appears to be growing constantly. Time will tell.

Agreed. Especially since there's no replacement for the MM that's M240-based. Some people bought (and still have) their M9 for a reason. And sadly, buying an M-E is no answer either.

 

[Vince Lupo]

If this poll is accurate, it's not looking too good for Leica... Nearly half have the sensor issue. 😵

So what's the best way to test to see if your sensor has spots? I just took a shot with my MM -- closed the lens to f/16, shot a dark-ish subject, and then looked closely on the LCD screen. Didn't see any spots at all.

Is this sufficient as a test?

 

[Jack Sparrow]

So what's the best way to test to see if your sensor has spots? I just took a shot with my MM -- closed the lens to f/16, shot a dark-ish subject, and then looked closely on the LCD screen. Didn't see any spots at all.

Is this sufficient as a test?

That's pretty much the test, right there. Though you need to look at the resulting image on your computer at 100% - the LCD isn't accurate enough. If you don't see any spots at all - not only are you not affected, but your sensor is very clean. 😛

 

[Vince Lupo]

Thanks Jack -- I will double-check.

Not that it necessarily affects the price of cheese, but I did have my shutter replaced earlier this year.

Here is what THAT looks like:


Monochrom Trouble! by Vince.Lupo, on Flickr

Interesting that the Leica tech knew instantly what the problem was when he saw this photo.

This whole saga kinda reminds me of when I read Hemmings Motor News (the classic car 'bible', for those of you who aren't familiar with it) and I read an ad for a Lamborghini or Ferrari with 30,000 miles, and it's already had the engine rebuilt and all this major stuff done to it.