Leica M9 FF-CCD corrosion on sensors

[Michael Markey]

I think that Leica ...with the 240 ..are finally at the place where they want to be and that the previous models were a means of achieving that strategic goal.

Each one has in effect forced an upgrade to the next model because of various issues for whatever reason.

The M9 is the latest and I`m sure that they will look again at the upgrade offer but very much doubt if there will be a re engineering exercise.

I just can`t see that making economic sense for them.

Maybe next week we may know more.

 

[jhgnag]

Could someone advise on just what it would cost me to have Leica replace a sensor...if I had to pay the whole thing?

 

[noimmunity]

Leica will survive, many of "us" just won't own one.

If so, and I suspect you may be right, that will signal a definitive turn in Leica's marketing strategy. So far they have been relying to a significant extent on the unique niche ecology that has allowed used bodies to play a simultaneous role both in market segmentation and in upgrade stimulation, where other manufacturers have had to offer more elaborate product ranges.

I'm one of those step-segment consumers that has purchased each successive Leica digital body at the end of its production run (both the M8 and the M9). Clearly the writing is on the wall. The only thing left for me to decide will be whether a film-based workflow justifies keeping my M lenses at all?

 

[burancap]

Those days are over.

Call me romantic. My wife sure doesn't.

 

[MCTuomey]

I understood that Leica's strategy regarding product obsolescence was to provide a softer glide path through offering the older CCD tech alongside its CMOS product in the form of cameras like the M-E. And of course continue to service the M9/MM cameras as needed.

Without a viable, long-term CCD replacement, that glide path is a steep cliff on which folks like me are teetering and maybe are in free fall. Anxiously looking forward to Leica's communications, hoping for a break.

I'm one of those step-segment consumers that has purchased each successive Leica digital body at the end of its production run (both the M8 and the M9). Clearly the writing is on the wall. The only thing left for me to decide will be whether a film-based workflow justifies keeping my M lenses at all?

Yes, it's film bodies or the M240 - no middle ground. Pretty grim. It's taken me some years to put together my M lens kit. Would not like to see it go, but the mirrorless alternatives are getting better, and my Canon gear is comparatively so reliable and easy to use.

 

[Calzone]

I think that Leica ...with the 240 ..are finally at the place where they want to be and that the previous models were a means of achieving that strategic goal.

Each one has in effect forced an upgrade to the next model because of various issues for whatever reason.

The M9 is the latest and I`m sure that they will look again at the upgrade offer but very much doubt if there will be a re engineering exercise.

I just can`t see that making economic sense for them.

Maybe next week we may know more.

Michael,

Certainly the M-240 is a more mature development that addresses the short comings of previous models.

In the case of the rumored MM-240 the possibility of a new monochrome sensor is a blessing, but understand that there are people like me who would like the "luxury" of having two different Monochrom cameras with two sensors. For me loosing my Monochrom still would be a great loss warts and all.

My hope is if it is a matter of the IR coating being too thin that a longer vacuum vapor deposition of a thicker coating (I'm talking atomic layers here) could be a more enduring fix. I really want to keep my Monochrom, and I also want a new MM-240.

Cal

 

[dcsang]

Me too. Adorama still retains a little corner of nostalgia.

My local, "Downtown Camera", definitely retains it.... non-chain run store (i.e. not like a "Henry's" or a "Vistek" up here in Canada).

(from my Flickr)

Cheers,
Dave

 

[Calzone]

Me too. Adorama still retains a little corner of nostalgia.

Fred,

Adorama has been changing/evolving a lot lately. The used inventory is greatly reduced. Less selection of general photo supplies. I went there to buy print file negative sleeves and saw that the bulk packs of a hundred were not displayed. I ended up getting the last package that was in the bulk size, but William had to retrieve it from downstairs.

Adorama now features more video and wide screen TV's to the extent that it is getting to resemble Best-Buy.

My old friend Gary no longer works there...

Cal

 

[Michael Markey]

Hi Cal

Yes I understand that .... I like the CCD sensors too.
I should point out that my position is one of still being film M based but was looking to pick up an M9.

As Mike says though .... the mirrorless alternatives are getting better and something like an A7 would accommodate both my Leica lenses and my Zeiss Contax/Yashica.

The decisions aren`t getting any easier 🙂

Michael

 

[willie_901]

...
Clearly the writing is on the wall. The only thing left for me to decide will be whether a film-based workflow justifies keeping my M lenses at all?

I think this succinctly describes the dilemma.

The assumption that the excellence of Leica film bodies translates to the digital M has taken a hit. Leica leveraged this core assumption as much as possible. Why shouldn't they? The new owners paid for the reputation earned by the film M bodies. They had to market the what current and new customers wanted to believe.

Perhaps customer trust can be fully restored if Leica has the resources to resolve the sensor issues for once and for all (I suggest replacing the sensor every three - five years is not a viable solution for anyone).

Sadly this situation is not unique. Porsche had to switch to water cooled engines due to environmental and fuel economy demands. Porsche also decided to minimize costs. The result is engines with rear main seal leaks, and catastrophic failures due to intermediate shaft bearing defects, engine block casting problems, chain tensioners failures and cylinder head cracks. I planned to buy a mid-2000 decade Porsche this fall. I abandoned my plans after a few hours research. The problem is so bad there are entire businesses that specialize in selling replacement kits for the intermediate shaft bearing.

I had a deep respect for Porsche based on my early 911. I just had to accept today's Porsche is not the same.

 

[noimmunity]

Yes, it's film bodies or the M240 - no middle ground. Pretty grim. It's taken me some years to put together my M lens kit. Would not like to see it go, but the mirrorless alternatives are getting better, and my Canon gear is comparatively so reliable and easy to use.

Leica have henceforth given unassailable legitimacy for another player to enter the niche market and offer a true, entry-level option.

 

[tightsqueez]

I think this succinctly describes the dilemma.

The assumption that the excellence of Leica film bodies translates to the digital M has taken a hit. Leica leveraged this core assumption as much as possible. Why shouldn't they? The new owners paid for the reputation earned by the film M bodies. They had to market the what current and new customers wanted to believe.

Perhaps customer trust can be fully restored if Leica has the resources to resolve the sensor issues for once and for all (I suggest replacing the sensor every three - five years is not a viable solution for anyone).

Sadly this situation is not unique. Porsche had to switch to water cooled engines due to environmental and fuel economy demands. Porsche also decided to minimize costs. The result is engines with rear main seal leaks, and catastrophic failures due to intermediate shaft bearing defects, engine block casting problems, chain tensioners failures and cylinder head cracks. I planned to buy a mid-2000 decade Porsche this fall. I abandoned my plans after a few hours research. The problem is so bad there are entire businesses that specialize in selling replacement kits for the intermediate shaft bearing.

I had a deep respect for Porsche based on my early 911. I just had to accept today's Porsche is not the same.

That's too bad. I had a 996 Carrera C2 for three years as a daily driver and it was by far the most reliable car I have EVER owned. My RMS was tight and leak-free. I literally drove that thing like I stole it, nothing but pure hard miles, all 40k of them. Odd but of all the dozens of other owners I met over the years never had the issue either.

I would buy another in a heartbeat.

 

[splitimageview]

Sadly this situation is not unique. Porsche had to switch to water cooled engines due to environmental and fuel economy demands. Porsche also decided to minimize costs. The result is engines with rear main seal leaks, and catastrophic failures due to intermediate shaft bearing defects, engine block casting problems, chain tensioners failures and cylinder head cracks. I planned to buy a mid-2000 decade Porsche this fall. I abandoned my plans after a few hours research. The problem is so bad there are entire businesses that specialize in selling replacement kits for the intermediate shaft bearing.

I had a deep respect for Porsche based on my early 911. I just had to accept today's Porsche is not the same.

This is all true, however being a long-time Porsche owner I have many friends who bought these cars, and those who had problems got new engines for free.

Leica should do similarly.

I had a couple of Boxsters but neither of them experienced the issues.

Meanwhile, the air-cooled models are appreciating like crazy. I plan to keep my '98 for the duration. (Last year of the air-cooled.)

 

[Huss]

Hi Cal
... the mirrorless alternatives are getting better and something like an A7 would accommodate both my Leica lenses and my Zeiss Contax/Yashica.

The decisions aren`t getting any easier 🙂

Michael

Problem is cameras like the A7 series takes fantastic Leica glass, and turns it into ok Leica glass:

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1334933

Which then begs the question, if the optical qualities are lost, what is the point of using them? Just because you have them? What matters is the end result, not the ownership of the lenses.

 

[EdwardKaraa]

I think that Leica ...with the 240 ..are finally at the place where they want to be and that the previous models were a means of achieving that strategic goal.

Each one has in effect forced an upgrade to the next model because of various issues for whatever reason.

The M9 is the latest and I`m sure that they will look again at the upgrade offer but very much doubt if there will be a re engineering exercise.

I just can`t see that making economic sense for them.

Maybe next week we may know more.

Fully agree. I have the feeling after one year of use that the M240 is the mature product I was waiting for, the one I can keep for several years without needing to upgrade.

I too don't see Leica doing anything drastic about the sensor. It just doesn't make much sense for a "old" product.

 

[burancap]

...I should point out that my position is one of still being film M based but was looking to pick up an M9...

That is where I am right now. Fodder for another thread!

 

[Jack Sparrow]

Leica statement here:

http://en.leica-camera.com/World-of...ortant-Information-Concerning-the-CCD-Sensors

 

[dcsang]

Interesting.. so it's basically that they're going to continue replacing the sensors (but don't say with what type of sensor or such) OR they're going to offer you an M(240) upgrade at.. "an attractive offer" price (whatever that means).

They're trying.. and at least they've responded - I'd like to hear more though, but then again, I'm not impacted since I don't own the M9 / MM / M-E etc.

Cheers,
Dave

 

[Calzone]

Thanks for the link. Yet again Leica made my dream come true: first by creating the Monochrom a perfect camera for a B&W film only diehard: and secondly for working on a long-term solution that will enable me to further utilize my Monochrom.

My third dream come true is for the MM-240 rumor to be true so I can buy another B&W Leica with a different sensor.

Thank you Leica. I patiently await more information on the fix. I also wait on the news on the possible MM-240.

Cal

 

[Calzone]

Interesting.. so it's basically that they're going to continue replacing the sensors (but don't say with what type of sensor or such) OR they're going to offer you an M(240) upgrade at.. "an attractive offer" price (whatever that means).

They're trying.. and at least they've responded - I'd like to hear more though, but then again, I'm not impacted since I don't own the M9 / MM / M-E etc.

Cheers,
Dave

Dave,

I read that they are working on a permanent solution, and the way I'm seeing it they hope to replace the defective sensor with one that has no defect. In my book I would call this a recall notice that is under development.

Cal