clicker
Well-known
Are we about to experience another Leica price increase ?:bang:http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/images/smilies/banghead.gif
Leica Prices
- Thread starter clicker
- Start date
- Latest activity Latest activity:
- Replies 27
- Views 3K
Bill Blackwell
Leica M Shooter
10% effective July 1 (USA). This only excludes the M8.
Turtle
Veteran
wow, the madness has become raging insanity.
larmarv916
Well-known
Guys...the word here is "GREED" These price increases will also only deter the vast majority of "Real" leica shooters to put off any purchase. Also it puts serious upward movement on the USED Leica camera and lens prices.
Turtle
Veteran
Yup. If Leica cameras are as 'hand made' as they say they are, who on earth does it cost so much more for an a la carte camera, ie different viewfinder mag or leather coating? Leica has lost the plot. The USD is no worse now than it was 6 months ago - better in fact. Roll on CV and Zeiss!
Leica must keep the business afloat, but alienating true users is not going to do them any favours in the long term. Their products are in the main wonderful, but tainted by absurdly high prices. If real users stop buying them, the great work will no longer be produced with them and they will lose all modern relevance. leica must understand that their kit must be used to make wonderful photos the world over or the leica brand will become consigned to history.
I own Leica MPs because there is nothing like them. My lenses are however Zeiss (3) CV (1) and Leica (1) and I suspect it will be new CV and Zeiss products that attract my eye.
alexz
Well-known
I'm so glad I rounded-up my long-lasting Leica lenses supply with 35mm, 50mm and 90mm FLs so can watch price game a bit more relaxed...🙂
An eve-increasing Leica price point wouldn't certainly do good to my nerves would I still be really eager to more glass... (like I did in my SLR days..)
Somehow, with RF (or probably Leica in particular ?) I noticed owning the minimum necessary lineup does feel self-satisfactory diminishing GAS attacks severely thus feeling a great relief on the background of Leica price rises. Perhaps some kind of self-cure good for health...
🙂
An eve-increasing Leica price point wouldn't certainly do good to my nerves would I still be really eager to more glass... (like I did in my SLR days..)
Somehow, with RF (or probably Leica in particular ?) I noticed owning the minimum necessary lineup does feel self-satisfactory diminishing GAS attacks severely thus feeling a great relief on the background of Leica price rises. Perhaps some kind of self-cure good for health...
🙂
Roger Hicks
Veteran
No, the word here is 'HYSTERIA'. These reactions come along every time there's a price rise (real or rumoured), and the sky hasn't fallen yet.
As others have pointed out, if you can easily afford a Leica, as most new Leica-buyers can, the price rise is a nuisance, not a deal-breaker.
If you're struggling to buy it, then yes, another few hundred dollars may put it out of your reach, but the odds are it won't. It'll just make it a bit harder.
The only used gear that will go up significantly -- and not much, then -- is current production bodies and lenses. Why should someone who is buying a 45-year-old M2 be THAT much affected by Leica price rises, rather than by general inflation?
Yes, old Ms have probably trebled in price since I bought my first used M3 in 1973 years ago. What hasn't, apart from computers? I tell you, the price of beer in pubs (30x in 40 years) HAS had an effect on my buying patterns. The price of M-series Leicas hasn't.
Cheers,
Roger
tomasis
Well-known
roger, indeed
IMHO users should use one body and one lens whole time, every day so the price doesnt matter anymore. As someone said here that the price dont matter for R E A L photographers. It is not like consumers who complain about meat or oil prices.
I think those who are negative about high prices, likely tend to collect 20 new lenses to cover 21-90mm fov and not using them all much (what else?). That mentality is much similiar to DSLR users (except professionals). That\s sad.
IMHO users should use one body and one lens whole time, every day so the price doesnt matter anymore. As someone said here that the price dont matter for R E A L photographers. It is not like consumers who complain about meat or oil prices.
I think those who are negative about high prices, likely tend to collect 20 new lenses to cover 21-90mm fov and not using them all much (what else?). That mentality is much similiar to DSLR users (except professionals). That\s sad.
Avotius
Some guy
hand made makes me laugh so much, canon dslrs are hand made as well, maybe not to the same exstent of an m leica but hey hey guess what, something as complicated as a camera will have some form of hand made work on it.
Turtle
Veteran
I'm not so sure, Roger. A Leica M has gone up very considerably in the last 5 years. Popflash prices have gone up $500 or so in the last year for a M, then one adds in lens increases and a 3 lens kit could be $1500 more expensive if one goes for asph lenses. That is a lot. I intend to use my cameras for many years, but to be able to do so one has to buy them in the first place.
I also disagree strongly that then price increase will not affect R E A L phtographers as one put it. I would argue that the fetishists will be the ones least affected.
Someone also said, 10% is not a deal breaker. No, but 10% every 6-12 months might be for quite a few people. Based on the previously stated logic one would never bow out of an auction as it would only be a little more expensive each time a bid is cast!!!! People do draw lines and stick to them if they value their financial security. I dont think you can call it hysteria when prices have gone up substantially over the last X years.
Not everyone affords a M 'easily'. For some it is tight and for these peoplem these rises might make a difference.
I also disagree strongly that then price increase will not affect R E A L phtographers as one put it. I would argue that the fetishists will be the ones least affected.
Someone also said, 10% is not a deal breaker. No, but 10% every 6-12 months might be for quite a few people. Based on the previously stated logic one would never bow out of an auction as it would only be a little more expensive each time a bid is cast!!!! People do draw lines and stick to them if they value their financial security. I dont think you can call it hysteria when prices have gone up substantially over the last X years.
Not everyone affords a M 'easily'. For some it is tight and for these peoplem these rises might make a difference.
kevin m
Veteran
Roger's repeated claim that "things are the way they've always been" just isn't accurate. Leica prices, including used prices, have doubled, or more, over the last few years. It seems only a short while ago that I sold my 35mm Aspherical Summilux for $1,400. My 24 Elmarit went with the finder for about the same price, if memory serves.
tomasis
Well-known
turtle, the thing is called inflation 😀
of course currency fluctuations add to it.
of course currency fluctuations add to it.
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
Inflation + rising oil prices + falling US dollar = "GREED". Got it.
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
That is an oversimplification. Like saying that freshly-squeezed orange juice and Kool-Aid are the same because there is some sort of flavour in it when you drink it, and there's an association and reference to a fruit.
Emm, edible fruit.
x-ray
Veteran
I also agree that prices generally track with inflation. My first m and lenses were in 1968. I paid $250 for a mint M2 and $125 for a mint 50 summicron. I also purchased a used 21SA 3.4 and chrome finder for $250 which was a major good deal at the time and a new 35 1.4 Summilux for retail @ $330. Plug this into an inflation calculator and see what it figures at 2008 dollars. I haven't looked in a while but the last time I checked it was in line with todays prices.
Used prices have historically tracked with price increases on new gear. Some used gear like the 50 1.2, non asph 35 1.4 and the v1 35 f2 have risen faster due to the cult following. Even the little 35 2.8 m summaron has risen dramatically in the past two years.
Used prices have historically tracked with price increases on new gear. Some used gear like the 50 1.2, non asph 35 1.4 and the v1 35 f2 have risen faster due to the cult following. Even the little 35 2.8 m summaron has risen dramatically in the past two years.
BillP
Rangefinder General
1. The word here is "economics"
2. No they won't
3. No it doesn't
4. and
5. The sky isn't falling
Regards,
Bill
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
There is a difference in comparing 1960's and 70's Leica M-prices and todays. In those "good old days" there was really no competition! You had a M and if you wanted lenses, that's what you had to buy, either used or new,
Today we have a huge choice between Leica's M-lenses and the Zeiss ZM and the CV lenses! I am very bad at selling stuff, so I tend to keep lenses and cameras, so I am not really affected by the current "inflation" in M prices. There is really nothing in the Leica M line-up that I am lusting for (at the moment, at least). The bodies last a long, long time and I am used to them, so why change.
Among their lenses, there are really only two that are at the top of any offerings by anybody. The 50f1.4 Asph and the 75f2.0 Summicron has no match in either ZM or CV, but as for the rest - the "new boys" are just as good and in some case, better than the Leica offering and at substantial discount at that.
I just got the 35mm f2.8 Biogon last week - a Summaron for the 21 st Century? I can buy a 40-50 year old Summaron for slightly less than this new lens. which probably is better as it it is new design, new glass and new coating (still have 40 rolls waiting to be developed after coming back from Tokyo last night, so final judgement will have to wait).
Leicas problem is that they are hit by a/Euro/$ exchange and b/ slow development times of new products and c/ a tendency to be "too late" with new ideas. Companie like Zeiss and in particular VC can implement a new lens in 3-4 month or even quicker in the case of Cosina/Voigtlander.
The huge amount of used M-lenses also affects the interest in "new" offerings from Leica. So a new 35/2 Asph is close to $3000 and a used one is 1/2 of that. $1500 is not small change for most of us.
Interestingly enough, wandering around in Tokyo's camera shops I noticed that the M8 is virtually non-existent, as new or used. Obviously the sales of it in what once was a major market for Leica is a big disapointment! AND rumour has it that Epson might tak up the RD1 again as the used market for that camera is hot and heavy. What Digital camera can hold its value - 4 years after its introduction it is still selling at 60-65% of its new price!!!!!!!
Today we have a huge choice between Leica's M-lenses and the Zeiss ZM and the CV lenses! I am very bad at selling stuff, so I tend to keep lenses and cameras, so I am not really affected by the current "inflation" in M prices. There is really nothing in the Leica M line-up that I am lusting for (at the moment, at least). The bodies last a long, long time and I am used to them, so why change.
Among their lenses, there are really only two that are at the top of any offerings by anybody. The 50f1.4 Asph and the 75f2.0 Summicron has no match in either ZM or CV, but as for the rest - the "new boys" are just as good and in some case, better than the Leica offering and at substantial discount at that.
I just got the 35mm f2.8 Biogon last week - a Summaron for the 21 st Century? I can buy a 40-50 year old Summaron for slightly less than this new lens. which probably is better as it it is new design, new glass and new coating (still have 40 rolls waiting to be developed after coming back from Tokyo last night, so final judgement will have to wait).
Leicas problem is that they are hit by a/Euro/$ exchange and b/ slow development times of new products and c/ a tendency to be "too late" with new ideas. Companie like Zeiss and in particular VC can implement a new lens in 3-4 month or even quicker in the case of Cosina/Voigtlander.
The huge amount of used M-lenses also affects the interest in "new" offerings from Leica. So a new 35/2 Asph is close to $3000 and a used one is 1/2 of that. $1500 is not small change for most of us.
Interestingly enough, wandering around in Tokyo's camera shops I noticed that the M8 is virtually non-existent, as new or used. Obviously the sales of it in what once was a major market for Leica is a big disapointment! AND rumour has it that Epson might tak up the RD1 again as the used market for that camera is hot and heavy. What Digital camera can hold its value - 4 years after its introduction it is still selling at 60-65% of its new price!!!!!!!
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Kevin,
First, adjust the price rises to hard currency -- not the US dollar that has gone from 89 cents to the euro to $1.55 to the euro (today's million dollar rate; it has been worse, and most of us pay more than the million dollar rate).
Second, allow for inflation in euros. You need about 15% inflation in euros 'over the last few years' -- call it 7, because that's the period I'm talking about for the dollar to fall that far -- for prices to double.
Which accounts for the aforementioned 'repeated claim' that things have been that way for a long time. The reason I repeat it is because it's true.
Inflation increases costs everywhere: weak currencies increase them even faster because of the multiplier effect. The latter is is true even of used gear, thanks to ebay: your $2000 second-hand lens today is my £1050 or 1300 euro lens, which certainly hasn't doubled 'over the last few years' in either currency. If the same lens was $1000 seven years ago, then it was about 1125 euros at that time. I don't regard 15% price rises, in luxury goods, in 7 years, as especially remarkable.
There's always a lag in price rises -- everyone hopes things will go back to 'normal' (defined as what a 25-year-old currency trader thinks of as 'normal') -- but the rest of it is not rocket science, advanced mathematics or even especially disputable economics.
Cheers,
Roger
Last edited:
Tuolumne
Veteran
Does anyone think that Leica will lower its prices when the dollar strengthens against the Euro, as it already has since Bernanke has been jawboning it up. There are no traders who are bearish on the dollar anymore (see the report in today's WSJ). I think the price increase is more an indication of Leica's business being in trouble than anything else. Raising prices 10% will probably not make a huge difference to people who buy Leica products new, but it should make a huge difference to Leica's bottom line, which clearly needs help given this move so soon after the January price increases. Nor do I think it's greed. Leica is trying to keep its head above water and good luck to them. I'm just happy I have most of what I want in the way of new products. In other words, I got mine, and the devil take the hindmost! 🙄
/T
/T
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
Gasoline/Euro/Rice/Sterling Pound/Gold Troy ounce price increases = business in trouble?
Yahoo! share prices decreasing = Yahoo! shares in great shape!
What business school teaches the price increase = indication of business problem Axiom?
