Leica, Sigma and Panasonic

[Calzone]

I think M lenses can be adapted to the SL?

Larry,

This is true. I own the Leica M-L mount adapter and the Leica R-M mount adapter. There is even a Leica mount to mount adapter for Leica "S" glass onto an SL.

I also own third party Nikon F-mount to Leica M-mount so I can mount my 58/1.2 Noct-Nikkor on my SL using Noctilux F1.2 lens profile.

Being able to use Leica lens profiles for Leica glass IMHO is a big deal.

Cal

 

[FrozenInTime]

I would be nice if Voigtlander also get in on the game and make some L native lenses.
The TL/CL would especially benefit from APS-C specific manual focus lenses.
For SL focus magnification integration as per Sony E Voigtlander would be interesting.

The SL AF lenses are monsters, so that put me off the system, but that could all now change.

 

[Calzone]

I’ve always had a sneaking suspicion, after using some of the TL lenses and a couple of Sigma lenses in the past, that Sigma manufactures those TL lenses for Leica. I find the build and look very similar. That may be the case for the FF SL lenses, too, but I’m not rich enough to have used those.
Of course, I have no evidence to back this up, but this is the Internet, so it’s ok.

OldWino,

Full frame SL lenses are clearly marked "Made In Germany."

The new 75 Cron-SL that is recently available is APO. So is the yet to be released 50 Cron-SL (APO); 35 Cron-SL (APO). These too are "German" lenses and are priced accordingly.

My huge 50 Lux-SL is "Made in Germany" and clearly marked as such.

The only TL lens that I know of that is built in Germany is the rather large 35 Lux-TL.

I think you are right that the other TL lenses could be/might be made by Sigma, but the full frame L-mounts are not.

Cal

 

[Calzone]

None of this makes any business sense to me.

PTP,

The ideas are multiple price points, added selection, buyer options, freeware if Leica is not charging a licensing fee for the L-mount, and expanding overall market share. Kinda brilliant if all of the above can be developed all at once.

Not everyone wants to pay the "Leica Premium," needs the weather proofing, or APO glass for the extra IQ. The native SL glass has the working pro in mind.

Collaborations between competitors is nothing new. The idea here is all collaborators benefit.

Teamwork in today's world, collaboration, and moving forward together do seem odd in today's world. To me stratigic alliances still make sense.

Cal

 

[ptpdprinter]

PTP,

The ideas are multiple price points, added selection, options, freeware if Leica is not charging a licensing fee for the L-mount, and expanding overall market share. Kinda brilliant if all of the above can be developed all at once.

Collaborations between competitors is nothing new. The idea here is all collaborators benefit.

Teamwork in today's world, collaboration, and moving forward together do seem odd in today's world. To me stratigic alliances still make sense.

Cal

I doubt there is a large universe of SL body owners that are going to use Panasonic and Sigma lenses on their camera bodies, or a large universe of Leica SL lens owners that are going to put them on Panasonic bodies. The Sigma lenses are currently available for Canon EF and Nikon F mount, and will be available for the Canon RF and Nikon Z mount soon. They are also available for the Sony E mount. So nobody is going to buy a Panasonic body just to use a Sigma lens. Panasonic will develop its own line of lenses for its mirrorless body and will have to compete head to head with Nikon, Canon, and Sony. Canon and Nikon owners, which make up the bulk of the market, are for the most part psychologically locked into their brand, so Panasonic will compete with Sony. I am not seeing much synergy with the Leica, Panasonic, Sigma partnership. But maybe they are just looking for the market around the edges. This sounds like to me something less than some grand strategic alliance. It sounds more like Panasonic is releasing a FF body and, continuing its existing partnership with Leica, it will use the L mount, and Leica will help Panasonic develop some lenses just like it does for m43. More of the same. Sigma has indicated they will release its lenses in the L mount, just like it releases them for Nikon, Canon and Sony. What else would you expect from a third party lens manufacturer? It is what they do.

 

[Calzone]

I doubt there is a large universe of SL body owners that are going to use Panasonic and Sigma lenses on their camera bodies, or a large universe of Leica SL lens owners that are going to put them on Panasonic bodies. The Sigma lenses are currently available for Canon EF and Nikon F mount, and will be available for the Canon RF and Nikon Z mount soon. They are also available for the Sony E mount. So nobody is going to buy a Panasonic body just to use a Sigma lens. Panasonic will develop its own line of lenses for its mirrorless body and will have to compete head to head with Nikon, Canon, and Sony. Canon and Nikon owners are for the most part psychologically locked into their brand, so Panasonic will compete with Sony. I am not seeing much synergy with the Leica, Panasonic, Sigma partnership. But maybe they are just looking for the market around the edges.

PTP,

I agree with what you suggest. Pretty rational.

I do think there has to be enough benefit for all parties involved for all to profit though however large or small. Otherwise it is a waste of time and resources.

Obvious that this is not their primary business model, and this alliance has profits clearly in mind.

Could Leica add Sigma profiles to the SL? Would this boost sales of SL's to some that don't like or can't afford Leica SL native glass?

Would it be easy for Sigma to adapt lenses designed for Nikon and Canon to be adopted to Leica L-mount?

Will Panasonic be just making the sensor?

I see money to be made here that is not like picking up soda cans. In a way this is easy money that recycles designs, will increase sales, and gains market share. Perhaps not by orders of magnatude.

Cal

 

[Larry H-L]

The business side of this doesn’t seem too complicated to me.

Panasonic needs a full-frame hybrid mirrorless camera to stay relevant and keep up with Sony. They have a long-standing relationship with Leica, so they chose the L mount.

Sigma needs to sell lenses. They cannot predict the future as to who will “win,” so they make lens mounts for the top four or five camera companies. They can quickly provide lenses to Panasonic by making their Art series available in L mount. Possibly, though a long shot, they might also want a more mainstream lens mount for their Foveon cameras down the road.

Leica needs continued help with their small cameras and new autofocus cameras, and Panasonic has done well for them. They also may be seeking more entry-level buyers, and they see this collaboration as a way to expose those buyers to the Leica name, on Panasonic-Leica branded lenses. If these young people buy L-mount Panasonic cameras, they may later be tempted to upgrade and try Leica cameras and lenses.

 

[ptpdprinter]

The business side of this doesn’t seem too complicated to me.

It's not. Panasonic and Leica are continuing their partnership that has been ongoing for over a decade, and Sigma is going to do what it has been doing since its inception: supplying third party lenses in a variety of mounts. Nothing new in any of this. I'm not sure what all the hoopla is about. It would have been news if Panasonic (and Leica) had done anything differently. The interesting question is what Olympus is going to do, if anything. It currently has all its eggs in the m43 basket, and the quality difference between m43 and smartphones diminishes every day, along with the sales of small cameras. I'd like to see a FF Olympus in OM size. Fuji doesn't want to go there.

 

[ptpdprinter]

Much has been made of the advantage of Canon's and Nikon's new lens mounts with throat diameters of 54mm and 55mm respectively, touting their superiority to the APS-C like 46mm throat diameter of the Sony. By all accounts, these large throat diameters are going to usher in a new era in lens design. If the Canon and Nikon marketing departments are correct, then won't Leica and Panasonic be similarly hobbled with the L-mount throat diameter of 48.8mm. Panasonic could have gone with any lens mount it wanted. Compatibility with half a dozen monstrously large and insanely priced Leica SL lenses wasn't essential. Maybe Canon's and Nikon's claims are overblown. Or perhaps Panasonic made a strategic error.

 

[Calzone]

Much has been made of the advantage of Canon's and Nikon's new lens mounts with throat diameters of 54mm and 55mm respectively, touting their superiority to the APS-C like 46mm throat diameter of the Sony. By all accounts, these large throat diameters are going to usher in a new era in lens design. If the Canon and Nikon marketing departments are correct, then won't Leica and Panasonic be similarly hobbled with the L-mount throat diameter of 48.8mm. Pinch of salt anyone?

PTP,

The complaints about lens weight and lens size are already well known with the Leica SL.

The follow through with your thoughts presents the question: are Nikon and Canon lenses going to be bigger and or heavier than Leica SL lenses? Also are the bodies going to be bigger?

Leica already seems to have turned away many buyers because of weight and size.

Anyways there seems to be a trend going on here. More megapixels, faster processors, and bigger glass is being suggested. Does bigger glass and larger size come as part of the package?

The M-mount was deemed too small and obsolete... Perhaps limiting.

I will say being the owner of the massive 50 Lux-SL, that is perhaps one of the largest and heaviest 50's made for small format, is that the rendering is rather great, even wide open.

SL with 50 Lux-SL is about 5 1/4 pounds and yes it is a big brute.

I will also reveal that the powerful Maestro Processor generates a good bit of heat. The aluminum body of the SL is designed as a big radiator and heat sink, and it gets warm to the touch.

Cal

 

[Archlich]

Much has been made of the advantage of Canon's and Nikon's new lens mounts with throat diameters of 54mm and 55mm respectively, touting their superiority to the APS-C like 46mm throat diameter of the Sony. By all accounts, these large throat diameters are going to usher in a new era in lens design. If the Canon and Nikon marketing departments are correct, then won't Leica and Panasonic be similarly hobbled with the L-mount throat diameter of 48.8mm. Panasonic could have gone with any lens mount it wanted. Compatibility with half a dozen monstrously large and insanely priced Leica SL lenses wasn't essential. Maybe Canon's and Nikon's claims are overblown. Or perhaps Panasonic made a strategic error.

One possible reason is to save cost. I dismissed both the SL (and the Q) rumors back then as Leica (who had been struggling with the rather unreliable digital Ms) churning out such a technologically advanced camera system from scratch so fast seemed unreal. But after the announcement it made sense. "Made in Germany" the SL is, but with so many Panasonic technologies on board (from the 49-point DFD AF system down to the "Eye Sensor Sensitivity" setting unique to Panasonic cameras) it's obvious that Panasonic involved heavily in the system's (and the Q's) development. Panasonic's camera department is moderately sized, so once it decided to go right against the big boys, it will have to take some of its investment back.

The new Panasonic FF camera will utilize all the latest technologies we'd seen on the GH5 and G9 cameras, and I have little doubt that it will be better featured and much cheaper than the SL. Panasonic will surely offer some Leica-brand glasses for its higher end lineup as usual, but even so the original SL lenses are priced too high to be competitive for the "ordinary" professional and proconsumer users (take the Sony Zeiss and Zeiss Batis lenses as reference). There could be some new, cheaper but not necessarily optically inferior (since it will face the hardest competition) Pano-Leica lenses instead. So my questions are, since it look like whatever Panasonic decides to do Leica's prestige in the SL system could very possibly be damaged, what kind of role had Leica envisioned itself to play in this partnership? What will it do to retain that prestige?

 

[Archlich]

PTP,

The complaints about lens weight and lens size are already well known with the Leica SL.

The follow through with your thoughts presents the question: are Nikon and Canon lenses going to be bigger and or heavier than Leica SL lenses? Also are the bodies going to be bigger?

Leica already seems to have turned away many buyers because of weight and size.

Anyways there seems to be a trend going on here. More megapixels, faster processors, and bigger glass is being suggested. Does bigger glass and larger size come as part of the package?

The M-mount was deemed too small and obsolete... Perhaps limiting.

I will say being the owner of the massive 50 Lux-SL, that is perhaps one of the largest and heaviest 50's made for small format, is that the rendering is rather great, even wide open.

SL with 50 Lux-SL is about 5 1/4 pounds and yes it is a big brute.

I will also reveal that the powerful Maestro Processor generates a good bit of heat. The aluminum body of the SL is designed as a big radiator and heat sink, and it gets warm to the touch.

Cal

Both the EOS R (of the Sony a7 III caliber) and the Nikon Z7 (of the SOny A7R III caliber) weigh around 680 grams. The A9, Sony's truly professional offering after which the future Canon/Nikon 1D/D5 level professional cameras will hopefully be modeled (they'll have to anyway), weighs 673 grams. So yes it's very likely that all three's offerings, professional or advanced-amateur, will be smaller and lighter than the SL. It's been a mystery that the SL was made so big in the first place. The next generation could likely improve on the issue.

The lens is another story since specs differ. Both the Canon and Nikon zooms available at launch are f/4 (24-105/4 and 24-70/4) and weigh around 600 grams. All have amazing MTF. The SL 28-90/2.8-4 weigh 1140 grams. Most 24-70/2.8 lenses, mirrorless or not, weigh around 1000 grams. The monstrous Canon 28-70/2 for the EOS R weigh 1430 grams.

But the most direct comparison would be the 1065 grams SL 50 Summilux against the Canon RF 50/1.2, which weighs 920 grams. Initial sample photos shows the later being capable of competing against any of the big lenses (extremely well-corrected wide open, etc.).

So the Canikon lenses are currently smaller, but not necessarily always so. Physics applies, you know.

 

[FrozenInTime]

It’s going to make an amazing film scanner : 150 Mpixel sensor shift

https://www.l-rumors.com/l5-the-new-panasonic-ff-high-edn-camera-can-take-150-megapixel-images-in-pixel-shift-modus/

 

[ptpdprinter]

So my questions are, since it look like whatever Panasonic decides to do Leica's prestige in the SL system could very possibly be damaged, what kind of role had Leica envisioned itself to play in this partnership? What will it do to retain that prestige?

Leica will come out with a higher MP SL2 and more large, premium priced glass for its velben goods customers.

 

[PaulDalex]

In the last few years I am doing mostly video
In this perspective the GH5 will retain many advantages:
Lightweight
Cheaper
Anyway advanced video specs like 4k 10bit 4:2:2 All Intra
Large DOF (I am not a fan of shallow DOF)
Large selection of good and cheap lens. The Leica kit lens is excellent anyway
So the new FF is not for me
I understand that in photographic terms is a whole different story
Just my two cents

 

[Bill Blackwell]

None of this makes any business sense to me.

PTP,
The ideas are multiple price points, added selection, buyer options, freeware if Leica is not charging a licensing fee for the L-mount, and expanding overall market share. Kinda brilliant if all of the above can be developed all at once.
Not everyone wants to pay the "Leica Premium," needs the weather proofing, or APO glass for the extra IQ. The native SL glass has the working pro in mind.
Collaborations between competitors is nothing new. The idea here is all collaborators benefit.
Teamwork in today's world, collaboration, and moving forward together do seem odd in today's world. To me stratigic alliances still make sense.
Cal

Very little of what Leica does makes sense to me. But the SL apparently won't work only as a boutique camera. So if the line is going to be viable, it has to be expanded to the 'regular' consumer. That is what this is all about, it seems to me. This is similar to what Leica did to the R line with Minolta in the late 1970s, but this time around Panasonic will use Leica's L mount on their FF body instead of their own mount.

Leica already has done this for years with Panasonic P&S cameras.

It makes sense that Leica should come out with their own version of the FF Panasonic body (the SL-2) and continue to produce their own FF L mount lenses for it.

 

[Calzone]

For those interested in weight and size; much of weight and size includes the battery. With my Monochrom I always carried a spare battery and sometimes had to utilize it in a day's worth of shooting.

With my SL, over the past three years or so I can pretty much conserve enough battery to make it through any day of heavy shooting, and that includes mucho chimping with my fashion blogger gal. Know that for my SL I only have the one battery that orriginally came with my camera.

Please chime in on battery capacity on the Sony's. Pretty much I'm clueless, but I suspect due to small size that it offers less battery capacity than my SL, and that perhaps extra an extra battery is required for a day's worth of heavy shooting.

Cal

 

[ptpdprinter]

I don't see the need to carry a spare battery as any different than the need to carry a spare roll of film. I think all batteries will last long enough for 36 exposures.

 

[Archiver]

Very little of what Leica does makes sense to me. But the SL apparently won't work only as a boutique camera. So if the line is going to be viable, it has to be expanded to the 'regular' consumer. That is what this is all about, it seems to me. This is similar to what Leica did to the R line with Minolta in the late 1970s, but this time around Panasonic will use Leica's L mount on their FF body instead of their own mount.

Leica already has done this for years with Panasonic P&S cameras.

It makes sense that Leica should come out with their own version of the FF Panasonic body (the SL-2) and continue to produce their own FF L mount lenses for it.

Leaked press release here:


https://www.l-rumors.com/press-release-for-new-leica-panasonic-and-sigma-l-mount-alliance-leaked/

Let's say Panasonic make a full frame camera: they license the mount from Leica and so Leica makes a bit of money from bodies and lenses.

Existing and future Leica SL and TL lenses can be used with the new Panasonic (and possibly Sigma) bodies, but will buyers be significant enough for this to make a difference? I can imagine Leica SL owners getting a full frame Panasonic as backup body, but would Panasonic owners buy those very expensive Leica SL and TL lenses?

Sigma are very likely going to make SL lenses, but what if they make a SL mount camera? This is where it gets really interesting. If they do, it will spell the end for the Sigma SLR mount. With the choice of Leica, Panasonic and new Sigma lenses to go with a Sigma SL mount body, the SD Quattro line will die out because only diehard Sigma fans use Sigma mount lenses anyway. The real draw for a Sigma L mount body is the sensor, but that will appeal to a narrow market. Yeah, I'd probably buy one, but only if I have a full frame Panasonic first to take care of regular business.

Panasonic and Sigma will profit from this alliance directly, but Leica will likely gain mainly secondary profits from licensing the L mount and the occasional SL and TL lens sale.

 

[Bill Blackwell]

... Panasonic and Sigma will profit from this alliance directly, but Leica will likely gain mainly secondary profits from licensing the L mount and the occasional SL and TL lens sale.

This sums it all up. At the end of the day, Leica wins by staying in business. The strategy is nothing new.

And now it appears Leica's digital M cameras are up for grabs to licensees as well.