Harry Lime
Practitioner
So, what do you guys think?
It's a point and shoot without a real optical viewfinder, but it's got a huge sensor (12MP APS-C), great ergonomics and from a few videos on the net appears to be quite fast. I got to handle a non-functional unit at a dealer and it's surprisingly small and feels very good in your hand. Basically it feels like a Leica Ia; an early LTM Leica with no rangefinder and a flat top plate.
But the lack of a real optical viewfinder is quite annoying.
I have yet to see an LCD that truly runs in realtime. There always is a tiny lag, especially when you pan or it gets dark, so it's useless for work where split second timing is critical.
So, you need to use a brightline finder in the hotshoe, but of course now you need to count on scale focusing, because you loose control over accurately aiming the AF. Parallax compensation could also be something of a problem...
Unfortunately after looking at the dpreview hands-on preview the controls for scale focusing appear to be very primitive. Leica should really look at what Ricoh has done with the GRD III in this regard. A top notch implementation. But regardless of the primitive controls, if focus is set is to 2m @ f5.6-f16 the APS-C sensor should deliver enough DOF for street shooting.
Ultimately what we really need is a true compact, a digital CL. with an APS-C or APS-H sensor, but for the moment we have the X1.
So, what does everyone think?
The price tag is pretty high, especially in light of something like the Pana GF1. The X1 is $1999 + $350 for the viewfinder. You can get a good DSLR for that sort of money, but it won't fit in your jacket pocket.
But will it do the trick?
I'm guessing that if you can live with something that is slightly more flexible than a LTM body in terms of shooting, but not quite as good as an M-body, you mainly have to figure out how you are going to swallow the price tag.
HL
It's a point and shoot without a real optical viewfinder, but it's got a huge sensor (12MP APS-C), great ergonomics and from a few videos on the net appears to be quite fast. I got to handle a non-functional unit at a dealer and it's surprisingly small and feels very good in your hand. Basically it feels like a Leica Ia; an early LTM Leica with no rangefinder and a flat top plate.
But the lack of a real optical viewfinder is quite annoying.
I have yet to see an LCD that truly runs in realtime. There always is a tiny lag, especially when you pan or it gets dark, so it's useless for work where split second timing is critical.
So, you need to use a brightline finder in the hotshoe, but of course now you need to count on scale focusing, because you loose control over accurately aiming the AF. Parallax compensation could also be something of a problem...
Unfortunately after looking at the dpreview hands-on preview the controls for scale focusing appear to be very primitive. Leica should really look at what Ricoh has done with the GRD III in this regard. A top notch implementation. But regardless of the primitive controls, if focus is set is to 2m @ f5.6-f16 the APS-C sensor should deliver enough DOF for street shooting.
Ultimately what we really need is a true compact, a digital CL. with an APS-C or APS-H sensor, but for the moment we have the X1.
So, what does everyone think?
The price tag is pretty high, especially in light of something like the Pana GF1. The X1 is $1999 + $350 for the viewfinder. You can get a good DSLR for that sort of money, but it won't fit in your jacket pocket.
But will it do the trick?
I'm guessing that if you can live with something that is slightly more flexible than a LTM body in terms of shooting, but not quite as good as an M-body, you mainly have to figure out how you are going to swallow the price tag.
HL
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MikeL
Go Fish
I was thinking it looks like my street rig:
It would be nice if the scale focusing was easy.
If the camera will fire quickly after I hit the shutter, and it was about $800 less, I'd be putting in my order. I don't go through enough film to make it worth it right now. I'm sure the lens is nice and the flexibility of changing the ISO would be cool.
It would be nice if the scale focusing was easy.
If the camera will fire quickly after I hit the shutter, and it was about $800 less, I'd be putting in my order. I don't go through enough film to make it worth it right now. I'm sure the lens is nice and the flexibility of changing the ISO would be cool.
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dof
Fiat Lux
I think the X1 is simply the first of a new category of cameras for Leica. Their promises of a new design for R-lens users hints strongly that the new "R" body will incorporate an EVF and this is their introduction to the concept.
You're right Harry that the current generation of EVF's still lacks the processing and display speed necessary for rapid movement and low-light shooting, this is certainly being addressed by technology companies. Epson's announcement this week is a case in point.
My take on the X1 is that it may be a fine camera, but like the M8, it will ultimately be remembered as a transition model for Leica.
You're right Harry that the current generation of EVF's still lacks the processing and display speed necessary for rapid movement and low-light shooting, this is certainly being addressed by technology companies. Epson's announcement this week is a case in point.
My take on the X1 is that it may be a fine camera, but like the M8, it will ultimately be remembered as a transition model for Leica.
Paddy C
Unused film collector
I was really interested in it until I started watching the price of used M8s more carefully. For only $500 (give or take) more I could have an M8.
But I'm still eager to read some reviews and peep some pixels. Just doubt I would bite on it now.
But I'm still eager to read some reviews and peep some pixels. Just doubt I would bite on it now.
35mmdelux
Veni, vidi, vici
Not interested in the X1 at all. Need a viewfinder and no lag time. In 18 mos the M9 will be going for $3K. I'll wait.
PS: Meantime I'll work on my glass.
PS: Meantime I'll work on my glass.
mrisney
Well-known
Think they should have put out a Micro Four Thirds, GF1 is stealing all the attention - That should have been their camera. That would be the Cl Digital .
The X1 is awfully expensive for a fixed lens - essentially a high end PS for the Dubai crowd maybe. Wrong economy, wrong camera, and have seen very little marketing for it. Prediction- it will disappear in 18 months.
Also will be interesting to see how they put on a game face over the S2. Phase One and Blad, will eat them alive in that market. 2 duds, 1 potential hit (M9)
The X1 is awfully expensive for a fixed lens - essentially a high end PS for the Dubai crowd maybe. Wrong economy, wrong camera, and have seen very little marketing for it. Prediction- it will disappear in 18 months.
Also will be interesting to see how they put on a game face over the S2. Phase One and Blad, will eat them alive in that market. 2 duds, 1 potential hit (M9)
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dogberryjr
[Pithy phrase]
Wishful thinking, or do you have some inside information here?
Bill Pierce
Well-known
I think the X1 faces a lot of competition. Among the “cameras that fit in a big pocket” there are some units of amazing quality (when handled correctly) that cost less and may have features you prefer such as interchangeable or zoom lenses. And this is an arena in which we are seeing rapid development. There will be even better cameras in a year.
The X1 is an excellent camera. But I’m not sure people will want to pay a bonus price for the Leica name. When Panasonic and Leica had essentially similar cameras, did many people prefer the more expensive Leica to the Panasonic? I don’t know. Does someone on the forum have the answer?
The X1 is an excellent camera. But I’m not sure people will want to pay a bonus price for the Leica name. When Panasonic and Leica had essentially similar cameras, did many people prefer the more expensive Leica to the Panasonic? I don’t know. Does someone on the forum have the answer?
ampguy
Veteran
The fuji f series of p&s have a mode for true real-time lcd viewing, interestingly it has a mode switch for "regular" mode which has a very slight lag, but uses less battery.
The Panasonic p&s's I've used with liveview do have that noticeable lag. I think they could reduce it, but it would be at the expense of battery use.
I think for p&s users, the X1 may be fine. For folks who want more flexibility with lenses, RF, etc., a used M8 shouldn't be that much more.
The Panasonic p&s's I've used with liveview do have that noticeable lag. I think they could reduce it, but it would be at the expense of battery use.
I think for p&s users, the X1 may be fine. For folks who want more flexibility with lenses, RF, etc., a used M8 shouldn't be that much more.
aizan
Veteran
there are more cameras like the x1 down the pipeline. i've been following the rumors of a new nikon system that has an image circle of 17mm, body-integral image stabilization, and at least two prime lenses (35/2.8 and 45/1.4) and several zooms.
http://nikonrumors.com/2009/10/16/its-a-nikon-patents-friday-nikon-mirrorless-interchangeable-lens-camera.aspx
http://nikonrumors.com/2009/10/16/its-a-nikon-patents-friday-nikon-mirrorless-interchangeable-lens-camera.aspx
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Mephiloco
Well-known
The X1 is incredibly overpriced and I'm not sure what niche it fits. The majority of threads about it here about been people wanting the X1 to be something it's not. It's a digital point and shoot, not a compact rangefinder or anything near that.
Harry Lime
Practitioner
To be a digital CL it needs a real viewfinder (optical). The size of the sensor really doesn't have a lot to do with that...
I think what we are really looking for is a compact, not a P&S.
You could define a compact as a camera that has all of the functionality of a full size model, but with a feature set that has been reduced to the basics and therefore is less flexible. But overall the camera retains the basic functionality of the full size model.
Compare the CL to a M body:
- Less sophisticated RF unit. Framelines for fewer focal lengths, slightly lower optical quality, but it still provides the same functionality as the unit found in an M body.
- M-mount, but due to the reduced frame-set, less flexible.
- Ergonomics and operation. Similar or identical to it's fullsize cousin.
- No 'luxury' features like selftimer etc.
- Build quality. The CL is well made, but it's no M.
A CL does pretty much everything an M does, if not as elegantly.
But even among compacts the CL was a pretty elaborate camera.
Something like a Canon Canonet QL-17 or the fixed lens Hexar bodies are probably a better example, since they have a fixed lens. But they do have a real viewfinder etc. If you shot a 40mm on your M bodies and someone handed you a Canonet QL-17, you probably wouldn't miss much, as long as you wanted to shoot a 40.
That's what the X1 should have been, except with the equivalent of a 35mm lens. A fixed lens body with a parallax corrected optical viewfinder and manual focus mode (with focus scale) for the AF lens. If there was a teleconverter that turned it in to a 50mm I would buy two of them. if the lens was f2 I wouldn't know what to do with myself.
I agree. $1999 for the body is a lot of cash for a P&S. You can get a good entry level DSLR kit for that money. The $350 viewfinder on top of that is a real kick in the shin. I see Voigtlander selling a lot of their 35mm finders; half the price and just as good.
aizan
Veteran
new rumor that ricoh is going to announce an aps-c gr one month from now:
http://photorumors.com/2009/10/17/ricoh-mirrorless-camera/
http://photorumors.com/2009/10/17/ricoh-mirrorless-camera/
TWoK
Well-known
Since when is an APS-C a huge sensor?
Harry Lime
Practitioner
That is exactly what it reminded me of when I handled it. It's pretty much the same size and shape of a rangefinderless LTM body. It felt like my IIIc.
It also instantly became clear that the X1 wasn't a low(er) cost M alternative, but a digital incarnation of an LTM. So, again, I think if scale focusing is well enough implemented and the brightline finder is reasonably accurate for framing it would be as good a street shooter, as long as you can live within those limitations.
But the scale focusing is the worrying part...
If you look at the screen grab of the X1 menu the scale focus panel looks something like this:
.3 -- .5 -- 1m -- 2m --- inf.
That's pretty weak. If you want to pre-focus to 3 or 5 meters you are SOL. Maybe Leica is counting on the extra DOF of the APS-C sensor to
make up for this, but it's pretty lousy. Actually it's lifted directly from the DLUX-4.
Again, the Ricoh GRD III does this a lot, lot better. Ricoh even gives you a display that shows roughly where your DOF should start and end at the selected f-stop. Sort of like the in and out indicator on the old Rolleiflex focus knobs. They also have a very good 'snap focus' mode. Take a look at the PDF manual for details.
I would buy a GRD but 28 is too wide for me. I'm a 35 or 50 kind of guy and they discontinued the 40mm teleconverter.
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gilpen123
Gil
And some were complaining of the BessIII price ........
Harry Lime
Practitioner
Compared to the dinky little CCD's in all the other P&S cameras the APS-C sensor is huge. It's also bigger than M4/3 and the Foveon sensor in the DP1 & DP2.
Attachments
MikeL
Go Fish
Good to know about the GRD, I wish they were more widely available to handle in person. I'm not a sharpness freak, but I like to be able to quickly get the focus in the ballpark when in the f4-f5.6. I'd dig a dial with click stops in the 6-12 feet range, and after that coarser increments would be fine. A brightline finder and minimal shutterlag, and I'd be willing to fork over some bucks. As long as it works long enough, the extra bucks wouldn't be a big deal.
My photos pretty much suck whether I use the latest-greatest or my Standard from 1930, but I hate it when the camera gets in the way. For how I'd use the X1 (point and shoot with enough light), the whole LCD focusing or poor implementation of scale focusing would get in the way, and drive me back to the small Standard.
mrisney
Well-known
Something about the turret round flash pop up ... I just hate that, and I have no idea why.
taxi38
Taxi Driver
Its probably very silly but if that flash could be unscrewed and replaced by a viewfinder that could be screwed into the same hole with the same pop-up feature Id forgive it its flash .