ferider
Veteran
rxmd said:
All a matter of pricing. Assume the new Summarits were developed
for the digital CL. Look at their price. Than you get a feeling for the
possible pricing of a CL. At around US 2500 for the CL, both cameras
will continue to sell ....
At the current prices that the market accepts, they can do whatever they want.
Roland.
Prosaic
Well-known
rxmd said:
In a way the new summarits cut into summicron and summilux sales? Thats the nature of business.
Ken Ford
Refuses to suffer fools
Prosaic said:
That's 110 employees *fired* from what I read.
rxmd
May contain traces of nut
In 1973's terms, this would sound just the same if you replace the new Summarits by the CL lenses, and this argument almost killed the M line as we all know. (Back then Leica even started inventing lies about focusing incompatibilities with the CL lenses on M bodies so that people would continue buying M lenses instead of just sticking Elmar-Cs on their M bodies.)ferider said:
A "mini-M" would quite likely sell at $2500 if it did all the M8 did, but that would be counterproductive. The key question is how Leica can keep people motivated to continue shelling out $5500 for M8s if they can save more than half of that sum by buying a mini-M. The M8 will have to offer a unique selling proposition over the mini-M. Since we already know what the M8 can do, the mini-M will have to do substantially less. This is not a matter of pricing at all, it's a matter of features.
Two answers to that:Prosaic said:
(1) Even though both Roland and you are doing it, the comparison between bodies and lenses doesn't work, tempting though it is.
The Summarits aren't primarily competing with Leica's own lenses, they're competing with Zeiss and Cosina lenses. They're there to give low-end buyers a new Leica alternative to new non-Leica products. In addition, Leica's higher-end products have a real selling proposition over the Summarits - 1.7 stops of light do make a difference in the real world, even if you don't take the reality distortion field à la "King of Bokeh", "glow" etc. into account.
Unlike that, there is no low-end competition in the digital rangefinder market, except for a few aging R-D1 bodies with vignetting, 1.5 crop and service problems. So Leica only has themselves to compete with in bodies, which they will want to avoid as far as possible, so the low-end product has to be significantly less capable than the high-end product. See above for the rest of the argument.
(2) Going out of business is in the nature of business, too.
The M line has been through a near death experience already thanks to exactly the same lineup configuration that the mini-M would generate, and at least to me it makes sense to try to avoid repeating that experience.
All in all, I'm not denying that a mini-M could take place, but if Leica's marketing people are worth their salary it will have to be crippled significantly vis-a-vis the M8.
Philipp
rxmd
May contain traces of nut
What makes you think that? I guess if given the choice between a $1400-including-CLA M6 off the gray market, a $1800 factory-overhauled M6 with Leica warranty, and a $2200 gray market MP, a lot of people would take the factory-overhauled M6.endustry said:
Philipp
Jan
Newbie
Small camera with large sensos is something that the market needs.
Maybe they stick the old m8 sensor to the D CL?
Then i will sell my film stuff
Maybe they stick the old m8 sensor to the D CL?
Then i will sell my film stuff
arbib
Well-known
Peter Walnes said:
Now this makes sense.....
already Zeiss and Voigtlander are offering lenses in other mounts...And that helps the bottom line.
I would love to be able to buy a Leitz lens in a Canon EOS Mount With AF. Or a Native Pentax PK-A mount for my ZX-M.
1st arm)
If Leitz went into multiple marketing arms...select lens for the top AF mounts, and Manual mounts.
2nd arm)
An M9 that is a scaled down Regular Guy M that sells for under $2,000.00 (The M6 and M7 are fully loaded Ms)..
3rd arm)
An R10 with a 1.5 crop and maybe 10-12 MP..and make a few wide R-s zooms for the R10, a Kit lens of 16mm-60mm (FOV 24-90) and wide zoom 10mm-20mm. (FOV 15-25) I don't see Leica making a FF DSLR...The Canon and Nikon FF DSRs are very well established around the world.. They need a Regular Guy (Leica Standards) 1.5 crop DSR under $4,000.00 with a Kit lens (16-60 f/2.5-4.5..-- 24mm-90mm). If these sell well..Than maybe a R11 FF...
4th arm)
A Leica Mini Dig-M with a few Len's...FOVs 24,28,35...from there you can a use a regular M lens for longer FOV.
This is all guess work and wishful thinking....That is what these treads fun ti read and to reply too..
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Prosaic
Well-known
Ken Ford said:
Used Google for translation? "110 new employees were terminated"
Let me tell you, its "110 new employees were hired" in the original.
rxmd
May contain traces of nut
sitemistic,
those 110 were indeed hired. What he means was that many of those were from the 500 or so that had been working at Leica earlier and had been fired during the layoffs. The German version is really quite clear.
Philipp
those 110 were indeed hired. What he means was that many of those were from the 500 or so that had been working at Leica earlier and had been fired during the layoffs. The German version is really quite clear.
Philipp
infocusf8@earthlink.
Established
Amen To This
Amen To This
As far as products are concerned, this article is not news at all. The section on new developments does not quote any Leica sources at all; on the contrary it says "the company does not give information about the future of the Leica lineup".
They are just reproducing hearsay and the wishful thinking of the online Leica community, where they've probably done their "research" on that matter. The article does not present Leica's M9 and Mini M plans, it presents the M9 and Mini M dreams of the Leica fan community and interprets them to be Leica's plans.
This is closer to the truth than any of the wishful thinking that always appears on this forum regarding a full frame M9. You will see a 20+ MP DSLR and a compact RF to go with the new line of "affordable" lenses before you see anything else. Take it to the bank.
Amen To This
As far as products are concerned, this article is not news at all. The section on new developments does not quote any Leica sources at all; on the contrary it says "the company does not give information about the future of the Leica lineup".
They are just reproducing hearsay and the wishful thinking of the online Leica community, where they've probably done their "research" on that matter. The article does not present Leica's M9 and Mini M plans, it presents the M9 and Mini M dreams of the Leica fan community and interprets them to be Leica's plans.
This is closer to the truth than any of the wishful thinking that always appears on this forum regarding a full frame M9. You will see a 20+ MP DSLR and a compact RF to go with the new line of "affordable" lenses before you see anything else. Take it to the bank.
arbib
Well-known
sitemistic said:
The idea was to bring a new market share to the table...those who can spend in the $2-7k range, but no more....I am not in that range, but many are. And many, I think would like the Leitz stuff..but it is too pricey for them...Why cant Leica TRY to open a NEW market with their higher end cameras. I am not saying compete with Sub 1k cameras, but offera MIDDLE of the road pricng on great Products.
Ok,,,R11 with a 15mp 1.3 crop and a 19mm-65mm f/2.8-4 kit lens (FOV 25mm-85mm) Sells $6,000.00.......
Leica needs to widen its base with more varity in the product line that will sell more to the upper-middle households..This "Only for the RICH" attitude on their products is going to kill Leica for the RICH! And everyone else !! The Panasonic merger is a small money maker...They need to get off their A** and compete in REAL world...My God Man...THEY STILL DON"T HAVE AN AF FILM SLR.....WHAT !!!@#$#$%%^^....I want an emergincy meeting with with R/D peolple RIGHT NOW!!!!! HEADS ARE GOING TO ROLL IF I DON"T HAVE A WORKING AF SLR IN 6 MONTHS !!!
Do like Canon and Nikon have done.....Offer: several lines
Leica CAN offer 2 lines....High End and Advanced amature....It would open up a new market and new Leica customers with an Advanced SLR/DSLR camera (s)
HIGH END PROFESSIONAL BIG $$$ CAMERAS..Pro. and Rich people
Middle Line Advanced Camera for the Better Financed regular folk
But no Entry level SLR / DSLR...Not Leica --
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Harry Lime
Practitioner
I think a digital 'CL' would work. If they really are working on a full frame M9, that will become their top of the line, highest MP body. The D-CL will play second banana.
The D-CL will probably be APS x1.5 or APS-H x1.33 and have a lower MP count. I only hope they don't do something stupid and make it 4/3rds. But whatever it is I hope it sells for substantially less than the M8. Like half as much and frankly I don't care of it wasn't made in Germany, as long as the quality doesn't suffer.
Every company out there has a tiered system. The Nikon D300 is one heck of a camera, but that hasn't killed sales of the D3 nor has the Canon 5D outsold the 1D series.
The D-CL will probably be APS x1.5 or APS-H x1.33 and have a lower MP count. I only hope they don't do something stupid and make it 4/3rds. But whatever it is I hope it sells for substantially less than the M8. Like half as much and frankly I don't care of it wasn't made in Germany, as long as the quality doesn't suffer.
Every company out there has a tiered system. The Nikon D300 is one heck of a camera, but that hasn't killed sales of the D3 nor has the Canon 5D outsold the 1D series.
rxmd
May contain traces of nut
Competes with:arbib said:
* Canon 5D, 12 MP, 1.0 crop for $2100, known good camera body, leaves you $3900 to spend on the equivalent of a kit zoom
* Nikon D3, 12 MP, 1.0 crop for $4900, leaves $1100 to spend on the equivalent of a kit zoom
I don't see Leica winning here. Leica's unique selling proposition is building systems geared towards old-style manual focus photography with good ergonomics.
No complete overhauls of the entire product line. If they have to introduce a complete new lens lineup and/or if they introduce a body that is incompatible with the large amount of R lenses out there, I think they will have trouble surviving.
This works if you have a big R&D budget, or if you have a small one and can trickle down developments from former high end lines into the new budget lines. Leica has neither; it lacks the volume needed for diversification.arbib said:
Philipp
mcsol
Member
infocusf8@earthlink. said:
I disagree with you on your view about the M9, and will add information from another interview... Dr. K. said (last July) in the Austrian magazine ECHO that they have not released any official M9 information, but he paints the following picture: "If you were Leica developer and you had found a way (he emphasizes subjunctive mood!) to integrate a full-frame sensor, you would do so, wouldn't you?" (source: http://www.echoonline.at/echo/salzburg/index.php?we_objectID=3330).
Asked about the R10, he stated that Leica has an obvious commitment to SLR. But in his (Dr. K's) opinion, one is better off with the M, though the market has decided otherwise. He added that Leica's SLR lenses belong to the best in the world.
So, it appears that it is not a matter of how but when the FF M9 will appear, and the same holds true for the R10. I for one am hoping (wishing, begging...) that they will release an official statement at Photokina this year, which happens to coincide with my birthday
-mj
aizan
Veteran
the m8 made lots of people wait. so will the m9. i give it two solid years before the m9 comes out.
johnastovall
Light Hunter - RIP 2010
sitemistic said:
The R10 will sale very well with all those who think the Canon 1DsMkIII has a major screw up in the AA filter. An R10 with full frame and even a modest 12mp will walk all over both Canon's and Nikon's full frame offerings.
HAnkg
Well-known
I think Leica has already figured out that a me to DSLR with a red dot and Leica price tag is a non starter. The R10, if rumours are true sounds like it will be in the category of cameras like the Canon 1Ds III and Mamiya ZD. That market is more skewed to studio and commercial work and unlike PJ's and sports shooters weather sealing, super fast auto focus and lots of electronic bells and whistles are not priorities. They already have the lens line to compete including on the wide end where Canon is weak. Just have to wait and see if the rumors are true and if they can pull it off.
tomasis
Well-known
rxmd, you have many good points but you're a bit overly negative regarding mini digital CL. M5 was awful piece (except for them who has large hands) and CL was never gonna replace M4 but only as a cheap complement to a classic M body with superb VF. High sales numbers of CL shows how people prefer simple "P&S" cameras due size, weight and price. It is always more ordinary people than photographers as potential buyers of Leica cameras so I see mini d CL as much nicer option to Digilux 3, Pana L1. Mini CL doesn't have be that good as future digital M cameras and fortunately it are too many people who are obsessed of megapixels numbers (to name Canon mentality) I wouldn't worry about this because it is different times now!
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