Leicavit <-> M4
- Thread starter HuubL
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ferider
Veteran
The transport mechanism must have been modified. Tom would be the
best person to comment on this.
Roland.
best person to comment on this.
Roland.
kbg32
neo-romanticist
As the ad says, "Leica model M4 SILVER CHROME SERIAL # 1254644* WITH LEICAVIT MP, the previus Owner send the 2 camera to factory to conver to be used with leicavit MP."
erikhaugsby
killer of threads
The body has a * in the serial number, so I would venture the guess that they took in a normal M4, destroyed it (or at least the top cover) and built a new M4 using the M2/3 advance system.
A superb waste of capital, in my opinion. Might as well buy an M2 AND an M3 AND a Leicavit for that price.
A superb waste of capital, in my opinion. Might as well buy an M2 AND an M3 AND a Leicavit for that price.
HuubL
hunter-gatherer
I would expect spindles, knots and bolts to connect the transport from Leicavit to camera, at least I think the cover with the diagram showing the way to load the film should have be removed, but this M4's insides looks like a normal M4.
Oops, wait a minute. It looks like my M2's inside with a loose take up reel. Is that all you need to have the Leicavit function?
Oops, wait a minute. It looks like my M2's inside with a loose take up reel. Is that all you need to have the Leicavit function?
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dreamsandart
Well-known
Modifying an M4 to take the original Leicavit MP is a relative easy modification a good repair person can do. I had an M4 with the long sprocket connection of an M2 added, the quickload was retained in place. Had a M2/M3 baseplate for non-Leicavit use ( the quickload plastic film 'rose' of the M4 would get in the way ). Or as in this M4 the whole quickload system was exchanged for an M2 style take-up system.
Leica did do this modification at one time as I know of at least a couple photographers that had this done, but looking at this camera I feel it was a more resent job. The seller is known to offer 'modified' (fakes passed off as original) equipment. The top plate looks to be a Leica spare part with the number engraved after the fact - the seller has sold other gear with 'collector' type parts/engravings that were actually added for 'added value'.
PS: no point in changing the bottom film guide diagram, even the Leitz modified for Leicavit M4s kept it. And... there was no modification to the film advance gears as with the original MP and M2 that took the Leicavit still used the brass gear chain, same as the M4 - only difference was in the take-up spool with the M3 needing a long sprocket connection added the same as the M4 would need and the MP/M2 having it part of their original factory part.
Leica did do this modification at one time as I know of at least a couple photographers that had this done, but looking at this camera I feel it was a more resent job. The seller is known to offer 'modified' (fakes passed off as original) equipment. The top plate looks to be a Leica spare part with the number engraved after the fact - the seller has sold other gear with 'collector' type parts/engravings that were actually added for 'added value'.
PS: no point in changing the bottom film guide diagram, even the Leitz modified for Leicavit M4s kept it. And... there was no modification to the film advance gears as with the original MP and M2 that took the Leicavit still used the brass gear chain, same as the M4 - only difference was in the take-up spool with the M3 needing a long sprocket connection added the same as the M4 would need and the MP/M2 having it part of their original factory part.
V
varjag
Guest
All this makes me wonder: would an M4 with brass gear train be OK for occasional use with Tom's Rapidwinder, or would it ruin the gearwork very fast?
dreamsandart
Well-known
The brass gears are fine with the Leicavit/Rapidwinder (never heard of a failure), its not like there is a lot of pressure put on by these add-ons. But the motor drive is another matter. The original M2-M and M4-M/MOT, and the later M4-2/M4-P/M6 all had steal gears and the same with the Leicaflex SL- MOT. Interestingly the new Leica MP even though it takes a motor still has the brass gears, I guess they are fine for the amount of use they may get and Leica was just being 'maximum engineered' with steal advance gear train.
dreamsandart
Well-known
If you want a Rapidwinder, new style Leicavit or a new motor on your M4/M3/M2 you can also have someone like DAG fit a bottom gear (where the film loading diagram is) rather than the long sprocket take-up gear.
Stoneaxe
Member
" Interestingly the new Leica MP even though it takes a motor still has the brass gears"
FWIW I have read that the gears on my MP are steel but just cut differently than the previous later models to give the "buttery" smooth feel of the brass geared M4 and previous.
FWIW I have read that the gears on my MP are steel but just cut differently than the previous later models to give the "buttery" smooth feel of the brass geared M4 and previous.
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
It is relatively easy to install a M6 type drive in a M4. Any competent Leica tech acn do it. I usually supply the winder to the technician so that he/she can match the two together. If you are installing a M2 drive (long drive shaft) it gets a bit tricky as the M2 drive was never meant to work with the M3/M4 film counter. Most conversions were based on the drive from the M4M/Mot cameras instead.
It was a common conversion with the M3 and Leicavit MP in the late 50's and early 60's. I know of a multitude of M4's that were converted too, both in Europe and in the US ( the late Sal Di Marco had a couple of them).
The * and the number indicated that is was a duplicate serial number ( I have actually seen a M4P number with ** after the number! Occasionally this was a slip up at the factory or it meant that the top plate hade been replaced after having been damaged. They are more scarce with the earlier M2/M3/M4's than with the M4-2/M4-P's (the earlier cameras had the number engraved on the top plate, whilst the M4-2/M4-P had it engraved on the accesory shoe - it is very easy to exchange these shoes between cameras by the way, so beware of M4-2/M4-P with purported "rare" or unusual serial numbers!
It was a common conversion with the M3 and Leicavit MP in the late 50's and early 60's. I know of a multitude of M4's that were converted too, both in Europe and in the US ( the late Sal Di Marco had a couple of them).
The * and the number indicated that is was a duplicate serial number ( I have actually seen a M4P number with ** after the number! Occasionally this was a slip up at the factory or it meant that the top plate hade been replaced after having been damaged. They are more scarce with the earlier M2/M3/M4's than with the M4-2/M4-P's (the earlier cameras had the number engraved on the top plate, whilst the M4-2/M4-P had it engraved on the accesory shoe - it is very easy to exchange these shoes between cameras by the way, so beware of M4-2/M4-P with purported "rare" or unusual serial numbers!
