Lith Printing...

[Todd.Hanz]

Anyone ever do any lith printing? Simon Larbalestier (sp) who used to post a bit here, was someone I admired for his skills in Lith printing, some of his work is here: http://www.photoshelter.com/gallery-show/G0000kCzcf_9Rcbw.

I've heard it's a difficult process if you want to reproduce multiple images but it is something I would like to try. I ordered Tim Rudmans book on the subject (waiting for it to arrive)...any thoughts, images, etc. that yall could contribute would be great.

I know there are different effects based on paper type, amount of time in the developer, brand of developer, on and on.

I am thinking about ordering the LD20 developer from Freestyle, and I have some Ilford FB Warmtone paper available, so I'm hoping for some good results. Any help or ideas are appreciated.

thanks,
Todd

 

[Al Kaplan]

Forty odd years ago I did a lot of playing around with litho materials such as Kodalith film, paper, and developer. A friend and I made up a pin registration board, and by using various pairings of negatives and positives, along with color filters of course, you can produce a print with different colors, but very little gradation within the colored areas. The technique was called "posterization".

For awhile it was very popular for rock concert posters and album covers.

Using litho film and papers developed in Dektol doesn't give you that stark "it's either black or it's white" contrast gradient but there's not much in the way of mid-tones. The film is also unbelievably grainy, but then it's usually contact printed. Make a 35mm sized negative, usually a copy negative, with it and enlarge it to 11x14 on contrasty paper and the only "fine detail" you'll see is the huge negative grain.

The directions say to handle it under a red safe light but the standard amber OC filter works OK if you don't leave the stuff out more than a few minutes.

You can also reduce the contrast a bit by giving it a very brief over all exposure to white light before you stick it in the developer (called flashing in the printing industry, "pre-flash" by photographers). If you do it about half way through the development ("bump" in the printing industry, "flash" by photographers) you'll get a partial reversal of the image and might end up with mackey lines (a nice effect) if you don't agitate much after the flash exposure in the developer.

Both the film and developer is expensive. The Kodalith developer is mixed up as solution A and solution B. You combined them just before use. The combined developer won't keep overnight even if unused. Back when I played around with the stuff I was working for a company that bought both the film and paper in huge rolls 54 inches wide. There were plenty of small "scraps" that I could take, often as big as 11x14. Since the mixed A and B developer was going to get dumped anyway I could take home a quart bottle of used developer to play with that night.

I wish that I had shot Kodachrome (with its stable dyes) slides of some of those color prints years ago. I ran across a box of prints a few years ago and chucked them. They were badly faded and had a pronounced color shift.

 

[whickus]

here's a few i've done:

the results can be very cool, but it requires constant agitation and a liter of developer is depleted after about 3 prints. the first print takes 3-5 minutes to start to show and each successive print takes even longer, so it's kinda disappointing if it doesn't come out right the first time. even more so if you don't get what you want after 3 prints and you have to take the time to mix up another batch of developer.

it's crucial to keep your eye on the print while it develops because unlike traditional prints, the entire print will continue to develop towards black unless you "snatch" it at the right time. i use a little flashlight with a red filter to watch for the black point i want then snatch it from the developer and immediately drop it in the stop bath.

exposure technique is different, too. in general, a short exposure will give a high contrast lith print and a longer exposure will give a lower contrast lith print. this makes dodging and burning a little trickier because you can't just increase the exposure time in order to give yourself more time to dodge or burn different parts of the print. different papers also affect the tint of the print.

i imagine consistency between reproductions can be hard to control, but it might help if you do the print with the same freshness of developer each time. for example - say that i know the cornfield print above was done with a fresh batch of developer. i should be able to make pretty faithful reproductions by making sure i always develop it with fresh developer. if the steering wheel print was done as the second print through a fresh batch of developer, i should be able to make pretty faithful reproductions by making sure i always develop it as the second print through a batch of developer.

that might all sound pretty tricky, but it's fun and you start to understand it more as you do it.

 

[Tmas]

Hello Todd,

my first lithprints were on Forte Polywarmtone RC and I immediately fell in love with the results! It is like a drug, so be careful ;-) !
You don't need FB-papers, many RC do as well. But especially Ilford MGW is not that good for lithprinting! It works, but not as nice as with a lot of other papers. In the book you will find that once you got into it (it isn't difficult at all), you will have so many things to try....
Anyway, be prepaired to looong developement times, Listen to some good music when you have the print in the developer!
Best,
Tmas

 

[keeds]

nice images wickus...

Lith is a fantastic process and my preferred printing method. It just requires more time in the darkroom. Exposure are longer and development times can stretch into 10's of minutes.

Ilford WTFB is not the best Lith paper. Fomatone Nature 532 II is my favourite paper used with Moersch Lith chemicals. Fotospeed Lith paper and LD20 is very good place to start, although the paper emulsion is very delicate when wet.

Todd, looking forward to seeing your efforts with Lith. Your current style is quite recognizable, will be interesting to see how that translates to Lith.

Have fun and experiment.

 

[keeds]

Oops forgot to say. The one absolute necessary tool is a darkroom torch. The R H Designs one is great. You need it to judge the snatch point consistently.

 

[Todd.Hanz]

Thanks guys!

whickus,
what paper/developer did you use for those prints, beautiful work.

You mentioned a red filtered light, will an LED flashlight work to determine "snatch" times?

great work as always,
Todd

 

[Todd.Hanz]

keeds, are those your images...seen them on flickr, small world.

I looked at the RH designs torch, pretty cool. Is red required or is white LED ok for lith.

thanks,
Todd

 

[whickus]

thanks todd. i used slavich unibrom paper for those prints. from the name it sounds like it comes from eastern europe and it's pretty cheap. you can get it from freestyle. i chose to start with that because i liked the subdued tint as opposed to a heavy peach/brown/orange tint i saw from examples of other papers. i like what i've seen from some kentmere stuff too, so i might try some of that next.

as far as a torch, i researched them a lot before diving into lith printing, but then i remembered i had a tiny flashlight with a red filter attachment lying around. i tried it out and it seems to have no negative effects on the prints, so i assume your led flashlight will work just as well. i've also read about people using red leds meant for mounting on the back of a bicycle. sounds like any red light will do.

Thanks guys!

whickus,
what paper/developer did you use for those prints, beautiful work.

You mentioned a red filtered light, will an LED flashlight work to determine "snatch" times?

great work as always,
Todd

 

[Todd.Hanz]

thanks todd. i used slavich unibrom paper for those prints. from the name it sounds like it comes from eastern europe and it's pretty cheap. you can get it from freestyle. i chose to start with that because i liked the subdued tint as opposed to a heavy peach/brown/orange tint i saw from examples of other papers. i like what i've seen from some kentmere stuff too, so i might try some of that next.

I tend to prefer the greenish/brown to BW look as well but like keeds "shell" print above, the peachy look has it's place. I'll look for the papers you mentioned.

Something else I should ask, do you expose your negative differently for lith, or just expose as typical. Al Kaplan mentioned using lith film but everything I've read seems to point to using current emulsions (Tri-X, Acros, HP4, etc.) and shooting as you normally would but over-exposing the print by 2-3 stops in the enlarger, ideas?

Todd

 

[David William White]

I tend to prefer the greenish/brown to BW look as well but like keeds "shell" print above, the peachy look has it's place. I'll look for the papers you mentioned.

Something else I should ask, do you expose your negative differently for lith, or just expose as typical. Al Kaplan mentioned using lith film but everything I've read seems to point to using current emulsions (Tri-X, Acros, HP4, etc.) and shooting as you normally would but over-exposing the print by 2-3 stops in the enlarger, ideas?

Todd

Mr. Kaplan is talking about lithography. "Lith" printing is done chemically with avalanche developers, and is done to mimic or approximate traditional lithography. I've done a little of both, and lithography, although careful and meticulous, is a well-defined methodology. "Lith" printing on the other hand....whew!...I never did get the hang of it to make it repeatable, but do I ever admire people who do it. Tim Rudman's book is probably the best resource currently in print on the subject of "Lith" printing. He's on the board of FreeStyle, and FreeStyle also sells a kit to get you started.

 

[keeds]

film is exposed and developed as normal. print is generally overexposed by at least one/two stops. test strips are of no use as contrast is controlled by exposure in combination with dev time. i normally start with 90secs at f/8 and see where we go from there.

 

[Todd.Hanz]

thanks Keeds!

Todd

 

[Todd.Hanz]

so I managed to eke out a couple of prints, not exactly what I wanted but I expected the unexpected. I was using Ilford FB warmtone, the Tim Rudman book didn't give it glowing results, but it was the paper on hand. I kinda like the prints but didn't like the fact I had to burn 7 sheets to get these two, oh well...it's a learning experience.

I need some bigger trays, the ones I have are 8x10 and I guess (according to Rudman) you need a bit bigger trays than the paper size to get even development. Anyway here are my first two halfway decent lith prints...

got a lot to learn still
Todd

 

[keeds]

Todd, good to see you've started. I've not really tried too hard with Ilford WTFB. I think it's good for normal dev / bleach / and lith redevelopment but normal Lith is a struggle.

Find some Fotospeed Lith paper or some Fomatone. You'll get better results sooner.

Agree with the larger tray. Because of constant agitation you over develop the print edges. Bigger trays help prevent this.

Did you get a darkroom torch? Really makes picking the snatch point easier.

What development times did you get with these prints. You can speed things up a little with a tray warmer.

 

[Todd.Hanz]

Thanks, I ordered some Kentmere Kentona paper for the next batch. These prints were also Selenium Toned which added a bit of contrast...thankfully.

I picked up a small maglight with the red filter, seems to work well. Do yall develop your prints with the safelight on or off, at first I thought I had fogged the paper but apparently not.

I started seeing a faint image at about 8 min with the developer at 40* C. I snatched at around 12 min. No real blacks on either image, I think it's an exposure issue (over exposed by three stops) so I will experiment next time.

Thanks,
Todd

 

[keeds]

Todd,
I develop with the darkroom safelight on. Only use the "safe" torch sparingly and only near the end of development to check for the snatch point.

The first couple of prints with fresh lith dev might not reach a satisfactory snatch point. One way to overcome this is to "season" it using some "old brown". This is lith dev that has been used and left in the tray to oxidise and go dark brown. Stick this in a bottle and add say 75ml - 100ml to a litre of fresh dev.

Attached are some new prints I've just done. I'll stick these in the post for you next week after the Easter Holidays.

Andrew

 

[Todd.Hanz]

wow, thanks Keeds.

I managed a couple of "better" prints last night after doubling the developer. I used Fotospeed LD20 at 30ml per part A, and 30ml of part B to one liter of water. The prints were better, better blacks...I actually could see the infectious development occurring this time. I managed 7 8x10's out of one liter of developer before exhaustion occurred. A faint image starts at about 3 min. with my snatch point occurring at about 7 min.

My main issue now is I seem to get black splotches developing on the prints when left too long in the tray, usually before the blacks fully form. I think I need some sodium sulphite but not sure. I am using Kentmere Kentona.

Todd

 

[keeds]

That might be what is called Pepper Fogging, never suffered it with Fotospeed or Foma papers. Do you have any of Tim Rudmans Lith books. He is THE man when it comes to Lith. Get hold of a late copy of 'The Master Photographer’s Lith Printing Course’. Invaluable.

The prints are in the post, give it a week and they should be with you, but it looks like you've made a good start with the Kentona.

 

[Todd.Hanz]

It's not pepper fogging (as far as I know), they are random splotches... varying locations from print to print. I do have Tim 's book you mentioned, agree that it's invaluable.

I really appreciate the your attention and coaching/help here... it's why I love this place

Todd