Lively Debate--Thank You All

[VinceC]

>> I come here for the photography discussions and to see great photography using rangefinder cameras, mostly.<<

There's something about good photography that inspires passion, and many of the best photographers are/have been very passionate people -- passionate to the point of being somewhat incapable of leading lives we would describe as ordinary.

Most of us are here because we're passionate about some aspect of photography ... the equipment or the image itself or a combination of the two.

Photography has the power to inspire strong emotions because it shows us things we might not expect to see or might not want to see. Significantly, it shows us the world through someone else's eyes. Most often, the result can be innocuous. Other times, infrequently, this other point of view can be profoundly disturbing, stunning or even magical.

 

[FrankS]

"The one thing that always seems to get lost is the fact that this place is merely a website, owned and operated by a very generous individual. RFF is not a country, it doesn't posess a bill of rights or constitution that garauntees freedom of speech. Jorge should be commended for considering our opinions and acting upon them."

That fact is not lost at all. Fairly obvious. This does not mean however that a website can't be guided by the same enlightened principles followed by many countries. And yes, Jorge should be commended for considering our opinions and acting upon them.

The issue of censorship is a very important one to photographers (and writers).

 

[Solinar]

A good point, Todd.

If you do choose to shoot street or documentary photography which includes a political context, do get in there to rub elbows and capture the true grit of the scene.

If a gallery owner then gives you the boot, don't take it personally. I could say more.......

 

[FrankS]

That could have happened here, but didn't in the end, thanks to Jorge!

 

[derevaun]

It's good that it was civil, and Jorge handled it well, but it's just weird to see the same event repeated: some shots of liberal protest are removed, and a thread ensues with righteous appeals against censorship mixed with cheap shots on liberal protest. Hopefully that pattern has run its course. IMHO it could be averted by simply stating what kind of images will be removed, at the uploading stage.

 

[kiev4a]

FWIW,

I didn't learn anything different from this discussion than I did from past censorship discussions, the same members regurgitating the same opinions over and over (myself included)....

The one thing that always seems to get lost is the fact that this place is merely a website, owned and operated by a very generous individual. RFF is not a country, it doesn't posess a bill of rights or constitution that garauntees freedom of speech. Jorge should be commended for considering our opinions and acting upon them.

Todd

Well said.

 

[FrankS]

I'm an elementary school teacher. Teaching the prescribed curriculum is only part of the job. Behaviour management, problem solving, and character education take up a big chunk of my effort. When dealing with an issue between students, one of the strategies I use is to get the studnets to take the other person's viewpoint. I turn the tables on them. What if the shoe were on the other foot? Let's apply this trick on myself:

In the instance that happened here at RFF, some photos were posted showing an anti-war demonstration. Some of the pro-involvement people on RFF were offended by the pictures of the protestors' anti-government signs.

If the shoe were on the other foot and it was a pro-involvement rally, would I, and others who stood against the removal of the pictures, want to have the pictures removed? I would not. I may be offended by the signs, but not by the pictures of the signs. And the principle of freedom of expression far out-weighs my distaste for the viewpoint presented. Even though RFF is not a country, it does not mean that it can't follow the same enlightened principles that our democratic countries enjoy.

I would not be asking for such images to be removed.

 

[Stephanie Brim]

Well put, Frank. 🙂

 

[FrankS]

We seem to be starting this up again. There's probably no point to that. Those who value freedom of expression are not going to change, and those who want pictures showing protestors critical of their government's polices removed from RFF are not going to change.

I'm done. Peace.

 

[RayPA]

That fact is not lost at all. Fairly obvious...

I agree, and it seems this fact has come up a lot lately, to the point that it seems I should give daily thanks upon entering what is a privately-owned site that publically recruits membership and has advertisers. 🙂 This is something I'll have to reconcile.

The real fact that seems to be lost here is that prior to the "consideration" given to us to discuss the censorship, the act of deleting the images (censorship) did occur. This is why some individuals left the site. While I know the maority here disapproved of the act, one has to wonder what the sites advertisers must feel. Like them, when I joined up with RFF, there was no disclaimer stating I would be participating in a site that practiced some sort of limitation on free speech. Judging from the response, if that disclaimer did actually exist, this would be a vacant, advertiser-less forum.

However, the membership seems to know best, so let's not forget that it isn't ownership that makes this site great. It's the membership. The thanks and appreciation should really be going the other way.

🙂

 

[VinceC]

>>I'm an elementary school teacher. ... When dealing with an issue between students, one of the strategies I use is to get the students to take the other person's viewpoint. I turn the tables on them. What if the shoe were on the other foot?<<

Well done, Frank.

I'm a journalist, a war veteran and the father of two elementary school students. Hats off to you.

 

[Solinar]

Frank thanks for the heads up on the controversy. I wasn't aware that pics had been removed. It was my guess that the thread had been removed and with it the pics.

The majority of my work is in an urban setting. Sometimes you see what you see. If the images are good photography, then that alone is enough of a statement. That's what I meant by rubbing elbows with the players and capture the true grit of the moment.

Now, if I could capture in the world of human interaction scences that express a sense of tranquility, I will have moved up a couple of nothes as a photographer.

Just the 2 cents worth of a former high school physics teacher from Texas.

 

[SolaresLarrave]

Well... I did learn something: we are quite mature, able to see the reasoning of others and understand their point without bursting away in wrath. I followed the thread with a particular feeling of admiration precisely because the discussion was always an exchange, not a fight. And it did run its course. So we deserve a big pat on our collective shoulders as a sane, balanced community of photography geeks.

BTW, I teach college, so I appreciate the efforts made by the teachers who deal with my students before they come here. 🙂

 

[Toby]

I've been amazed at how gentlemanly (or ladylike) this site is. Let's hope the spirit is contageous

 

[FrankS]

Yes we are a good group, with differing politics. Let's respect each other, and exercise some self-restraint, and not rub anyone's face in something we know to be contentious. Self-restraint is easier to swallow than imposed censorship.

Everyone has to realize though that this is an international community, with sensibilities outside the comfort zone of some. If you want to keep international members, you are going to have to understand that there are points of view that differ but are just as deserving of respect.

 

[Toby]

Yes we are a good group, with differing politics. Let's respect each other, and exercise some self-restraint, and not rub anyone's face in something we know to be contentious. Self-restraint is easier to swallow than imposed censorship.

Everyone has to realize though that this is an international community, with sensibilities outside the comfort zone of some. If you want to keep international members, you are going to have to understand that there are points of view that differ but are just as deserving of respect.

Interesting to hear you work in a school. I just took on an Iranian student to work in my bar she told me that her school and many others in Iran the have a stars and stripes doormat that all wipe their feet on and then they start everyday with a happy rendition of the "Death to America Song" now there's a country that knows how to form young minds. I really hope she's pulling my leg 😕

 

[canonetc]

I think politics are inherently divisive because they often function from a "I'm Right you're Wrong" position. The politically motivated person who wants to post such images should be honest with themselves (and us) and not post them. To post them is trying to shove "your" politics down someone else's throat, albeit surreptitiously and sneakily. Whether you are "Red", Blue" or none, it's a question of honesty and respecting people of other beliefs, and not forcing yours upon them. This forum is not a free-for-all. But it rocks nonetheless!

cheers,

Chris
canonetc

 

[djon]

I think Jorge's role is partially that of a news editor: showing all the news that's fit to print...

...but selectively restricting the flow to maintain the credibility of the medium (eg this Forum) AND occasionally biasing the flow, the way any editor does, to reflect his personal style. It's never "neutral" and not necessarily "fair."

Sometimes bias can be a good thing, but it can get out of hand. This is a matter of "wisdom"...

....and Rangefinder Forum demonstrates a particular wisdom.

 

[RJBender]

....I'm not sure it was necessary to lock the thread...

Several years ago I found a reference to "L. Riefenstahl" in one of Rollei's brochures from the early 1990s. I posted a question to the Rollei List asking if this was the nazi flmmaker, Leni Riefenstahl, that Rollei was referring to in their brochures. The question resulted in a flurry of posts that shut the entire list down in less than 2 days. Closing the thread on RFF was a good idea IMO.

I had more of a problem with the protestors using copyrighted images of Bush and Cheney on their posters than I did with the swastika in the Bush name. Why? Just Google "prescott bush" "trading with the enemy act" union bank"

R.J.

 

[back alley]

rj, i can't read that blue lettering at all.

is it just me...please say no.

joe