Loading the camera with the shutter tensioned.

[Richard G]

I decided to do what I do with a new digital: read the manual right through. The loading instructions for my IIIf advise winding the shutter and then not release it till after loading the film. The M6 manual advises inserting the film and winding. But the IIIf manual also advises what a lot of us do with many cameras, carefully taking up the slack and tensioning the strip leader by gently turning the rewind knob until resistance before releasing the shutter and winding on.

Presumably the advice regarding the shutter is to ensure that the only force acting on the shutter curtains passing the film for the first time is the internal workings of the camera, rather than a hefty wind of the shutter by a heavy human hand past a misloaded film.

 

[Bill Clark]

I load the film, then will start advancing the film to make sure it is working properly. Then I put the base plate on, advance the film the rest of the way. Fire shutter then advance the film again and fire the shutter. I don’t advance the film, tensioning the shutter until I’m ready to make a photograph. I operate all my film cameras this way.

 

[Rob-F]

But the IIIf manual also advises what a lot of us do with many cameras, carefully taking up the slack and tensioning the strip leader by gently turning the rewind knob until resistance before releasing the shutter and winding on.

P

I do this with all 35mm cameras, whether they are the older thread-mount Leicas, Leica M, or Nikons. The purpose is to enable us to see the rewind crank turning when winding, as an indication the film is advancing properly. And whether Leica advises it or not, I leave the camera open as I wind the first half-frame or so, to visually make sure the sprocket is engaging properly.

I have no idea why it would matter whether the shutter is wound before loading. If it is, we just have to release it before we can begin winding. Of course, if you shoot to the end of the roll, the shutter could be half-wound when the roll ends; that's no big deal, either.

 

[Richard G]

Thanks Bill. That's what I've been doing with these cameras too. I check the film is down low and the sprockets are engaging and I have fired the shutter and half wound on to be sure it's working before closing the camera.

My interest then was in this instruction to cock the shutter but not release it before loading the film. A lot of thinking goes into these manuals and nothing is there for no reason. It must relate to a concern about damage to the shutter curtains. Can't see any other reason for the manual to give such advice.

PS

To the LTM enthusiasts I do apologize for mentioning a device designated "the M6." This is a sort of super IIIg. It is a camera for film use too, made by a different firm, Leica AG, and no cleverer in terms of parallax corrected frame lines except that they cover the range from 28 to 135mm. The loading of the film is through the base of the camera but there is no removable take-up spool. Unbelievable as this may sound, you just slot the film in, with no need to cut the leader, and the end sits between the tines of a fixed forked take up mechanism and you can just close the camera and advance the film. Should I mention that it has a built in light meter?

 

[Bill Clark]

Damage can occur with the shutter curtain either tensioned or not. Just a different curtain to damage.

 

[Ronald M]

There are all kinds of tricks to enable one to load a screw mt Leica. Every one can potentially cause damage. Cut the leader.

One screw mount I own does not seem to catch well so I put the camera on T, open the shutter, and see the film is positioned properly.

 

[Richard G]

Recently on the Literature thread the first item was a lovely diagram of the right set up of the film. In the IIIf there is a diagram suggesting that nothing of the full width of the film should emerge from the film cassette, but the manual allows two sprocket holes, no more.

What no-one has yet addressed is my original question in this thread: why in Leitz's careful iteration of these cameras and manuals, do they, in their great wisdom, more than twenty years into the project, advise in the If, IIf and IIIf manual that you should cock the shutter but not release it before loading the film. There will be a reason or they would not have bothered to include this. Simple question.

 

[Sarcophilus Harrisii]

I decided to do what I do with a new digital: read the manual right through. The loading instructions for my IIIf advise winding the shutter and then not release it till after loading the film. The M6 manual advises inserting the film and winding. But the IIIf manual also advises what a lot of us do with many cameras, carefully taking up the slack and tensioning the strip leader by gently turning the rewind knob until resistance before releasing the shutter and winding on.

Presumably the advice regarding the shutter is to ensure that the only force acting on the shutter curtains passing the film for the first time is the internal workings of the camera, rather than a hefty wind of the shutter by a heavy human hand past a misloaded film.

Unless these German cameras really are overrated POS (I think they're overrated, POS, no) it cannot possibly have anything to do with the durability of the mechanism. Take a second to consider a few points. The film wind and transport is designed to manage the loadings involved in cocking the shutter curtains and advancing the film. What do you think takes place when they're used? Wind and release, release and wind, six of one, half a dozen of the other.

I have no idea what was going through the minds of the authors of the instructions when they wrote the words in question. They might have felt the loading process was better following their instructions (why, I can't imagine). But this is a mechanical focal plane shutter camera we're discussing: not a classic dry sump Ferrari motor. It doesn't need to be run in, or warmed up before use. Any theories along the lines of mechanical detriment being an imperative are preposterous.
Cheers,
Brett

 

[Richard G]

Unless these German cameras really are overrated POS (I think they're overrated, POS, no) it cannot possibly have anything to do with the durability of the mechanism. Take a second to consider a few points. The film wind and transport is designed to manage the loadings involved in cocking the shutter curtains and advancing the film. What do you think takes place when they're used? Wind and release, release and wind, six of one, half a dozen of the other.

I have no idea what was going through the minds of the authors of the instructions when they wrote the words in question. They might have felt the loading process was better following their instructions (why, I can't imagine). But this is a mechanical focal plane shutter camera we're discussing: not a classic dry sump Ferrari motor. It doesn't need to be run in, or warmed up before use. Any theories along the lines of mechanical detriment being an imperative are preposterous.
Cheers,
Brett

Maybe as you use roll film in Rolleiflexes you don't understand. I had no idea that getting a very simple question addressed specifically would be so damn difficult. Of course it has nothing to do with whether the camera is up to the task of tension and advance and release. Of course not. The point is the unique loading requirement of having a thin leader and getting the full width of the film safely past the film gate for the exposure of the rest of the roll. Making that leader straight and flat was one part of Leitz's recommendation, as per the instruction to tension the film by gently rewinding. But the first part of their unique instruction is to not fire the shutter release after tensioning, until the film is loaded. That is very specific, and will be recommended for a reason. Likely a good reason.

My contention is that they were worried about the first advance and poorly cut film or poorly seated film damaging the shutter and they preferred the first movement of the shutter curtains after loading would be with only the force of releasing the shutter and not some strong arm rotation of the advance knob and tearing the shutter curtain mechanism. But maybe there is another reason.

 

[Sarcophilus Harrisii]

Well perhaps the concern was around minimising the chances of the end of the leader entering the gate and becoming entangled in the curtains? That would make more sense. Mind, manufacturing a camera that wasn’t such a chore to load would make even more sense. 😉
Cheers
Brett

 

[Richard G]

Well perhaps the concern was around minimising the chances of the end of the leader entering the gate and becoming entangled in the curtains? That would make more sense. Mind, manufacturing a camera that wasn’t such a chore to load would make even more sense. 😉
Cheers
Brett

Thanks Brett. I agree about the loading. And the latest of mine is the hardest to get right: its seems very fussy.

 

[Bill Clark]

Could it be, winding and tensioning the shutter, puts the film/shutter advance knob so as it won’t accidently start turning as the camera is loaded with film? A partially advanced shutter would expose the seam where the two curtains meet and maybe could get damaged during film loading?

Just a thought.

I’m going to continue loading as I have going forward.

 

[lynnb]

Presumably the advice regarding the shutter is to ensure that the only force acting on the shutter curtains passing the film for the first time is the internal workings of the camera, rather than a hefty wind of the shutter by a heavy human hand past a misloaded film.

This sounds plausible Richard. If one misloads a film one can find, over time, an astounding number of film fragments in the shutter mechanism.

Don't ask me how I know this.

 

[Richard G]

Could it be, winding and tensioning the shutter, puts the film/shutter advance knob so as it won’t accidently start turning as the camera is loaded with film? A partially advanced shutter would expose the seam where the two curtains meet and maybe could get damaged during film loading?

Just a thought.

I’m going to continue loading as I have going forward.

That's an insightful idea. Maybe that's it. Thanks Bill. The seam in the middle of the gate would be subject to abrasion by the descending "blade" of the trimmed leader. With the shutter not yet released the designers could be sure that there would be just a large flat plane of the silk of the first curtain, past which the first descent of the film has the best chance of working safely.

Who knows, once they included the T shutter speed they might have been tempted to rewrite the manual but were howled down by the traditionalists.

 

[shawn]

Recently on the Literature thread the first item was a lovely diagram of the right set up of the film. In the IIIf there is a diagram suggesting that nothing of the full width of the film should emerge from the film cassette, but the manual allows two sprocket holes, no more.

What no-one has yet addressed is my original question in this thread: why in Leitz's careful iteration of these cameras and manuals, do they, in their great wisdom, more than twenty years into the project, advise in the If, IIf and IIIf manual that you should cock the shutter but not release it before loading the film. There will be a reason or they would not have bothered to include this. Simple question.

Maybe so that the shutter is ready to be opened on T if needed to help align the film?

Shawn

 

[Rob-F]

Could it be, winding and tensioning the shutter, puts the film/shutter advance knob so as it won’t accidently start turning as the camera is loaded with film? A partially advanced shutter would expose the seam where the two curtains meet and maybe could get damaged during film loading?

Just a thought.

I’m going to continue loading as I have going forward.

Well, releasing the shutter would not leave the seam exposed, though. Only partial winding after release could do that.

 

[shawn]

Just checked the manual for my Tower 45/Nicca 5l and it has the opposite directions in it. They have your push the winder as far as possible and then release the shutter as the first step in loading the camera. Assume that is to avoid having the seam in the middle if you ran out of film mid-advance.

Shawn

 

[Richard G]

Well, releasing the shutter would not leave the seam exposed, though. Only partial winding after release could do that.

Rob, this is precisely Bill's point. By having the shutter not yet released, it is not possible to half wind on, leaving the seam in the middle of the gate.

 

[Dez]

[QUOTE
What no-one has yet addressed is my original question in this thread: why in Leitz's careful iteration of these cameras and manuals, do they, in their great wisdom, more than twenty years into the project, advise in the If, IIf and IIIf manual that you should cock the shutter but not release it before loading the film. There will be a reason or they would not have bothered to include this. Simple question.[/QUOTE]

One possibility is that with the shutter tensioned, the sprockets won't move allowing easier registration with the film's sprocket holes.

Maybe?

Cheers,
Dez

 

[MikeMGB]

This manual would have been written by a technical writer and/or engineer, over the years different writers would have taken over and made changes and updates. It's entirely possible a new writer on the job added this instruction simply because that was how he loaded film, there may not have been a specific reason.

I work closely with technical writers in a large engineering company and see this kind of thing all the time. Sometimes ego takes over and the writer's personal preference gets written into the operation manual.