London Riots

Exactly, I just didn't dare to move from social/ethic part of the thing to politics.

Roger Hicks said:
I echo every word you say, but at the risk of sounding like a bleeding-heart liberal, I'd add

4: Ever increasing gap between rich and poor, leading to a feeling that they've very little to lose.

They're wrong, of course, but if as a group the poor and powerless become still poorer and more powerless, then the poor as a group willl riot more. Look at English history in the late 18th and early 19th century (urbanization after the Industrial Revolution).

Of course poverty in this sense is relative: I suspect that 99% or more of rioters have a roof over their heads, and that they also have enough (more than enough?) to eat. So maybe it's time to stop calling it 'poverty' (which it isn't, by any reasonable definition) and to start concentrating on the phrase 'wealth gap' instead. If people start realizing thast they are not, in fact, actually living in poverty because they have only one colour television, they might (but only might) feel less hard done by.

Cheers,

R.
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"4: Ever increasing gap between rich and poor, leading to a feeling that they've very little to lose."

This is, at least for me, the first issue that should be addressed.
I live in Argentina, and I've been to Brazil many times. The gap between rich and poor in Latin America is huge, and it's one of the main reasons that our society is violent, as recent genetic researches have shown.

When speaking about human nature, one must first speak about human needs. For an individual to become a person with good values and ideas, a society with equal rights and opportunities is key.
This gap between rich and poor, creates violence and resentment. Of course is not the single issue, but it's a big one.

And then you only need a spark.
 
Camera shops in Manchester OK?

Camera shops in Manchester OK?

Glad to hear that The Real Camera Shop was unharmed. What about the two Leica shops in St Anne's arcade and Barton arcade?

Sean (only back in Tipperary a few days after a very pleasant visit to Manchester)
 
I agree and I would add a few other facets of culture that are part of the same thing:

Celebrity culture: everyone else is famous and has it easy. You are the only one struggling. Endless celebrity mags (and low-grade newspapers) ram this garbage down peoples throats.

Political Correctness & Blame culture: We have been through a dark phase (particularly in education) when everybody was 'special in their own way' and not being good at something meant the fault lay 'in the system.' streaming was scrapped by many schools as 'elitist' and millions of youngsters were not prepared for the real world. While we were at it, by laying the emphasis on the system and not individual, we scrapped the idea of personal responsibility and self-determination. Too many people were given too many excuses to sit on the arses feeling sorry for themselves rather than getting their act together and making a go of things. This manifests itself anywhere where an excuse can be made.

I will never forget the time when I had to deal with a very weak soldier under my command (on operations). He was plenty capable, but bone idle. He let everyone else pull the weight and visibly did not undertake the classroom everyone else was doing to prepare for various tests. When he failed to meet the standard, he told my 2iC that he thought I had it in for him because he was black. What galled me is that I had soldiers half as smart as him doing twice as well, because they had learnt the relationship between input and output. This guy had learnt another lesson: blame the system/authority when things are not handed to you on a plate. To make matters worse, for decades, companies/Govt departments were terrified to stand up to these sorts of people for fear of being branded institutionally '[something]ist.' My kids don't even get homework because it is considered 'pushy' and they are not allowed to play conkers because it is 'too competitive' and leads to arguments, reading a school report is all about removing the 'Billy is special' fluff and trying to figure out if ANY of it says how well they are actually doing in empirical terms....
 
In London, and the UK as a whole, we have a severe problem with our "underclass". A great deal of young people leave school unable to read or write and come from homes in which their parents and grandparents never worked.

The governments we have had have generally only encouraged this, or swept it under the carpet. There has never been a solid plan for getting people into work or education.

Crime in the UK is rarely punished in the way it should be, i.e. dealing drugs, which is an "invented" crime, carries a harsh sentence, but true "moral" crime such as mugging and violence can sometimes not even carry a custodial sentence.

So what we have is a large underclass, uneducated, and unemployed, able to get things they want via crime, for which they are unlikely to receive punishment for. Our police service is accused of complacency if they don't do enough, or brutality if they do too much.

I doubt many of the rioters even know why they're doing it, but I'd be very interested if the Police took the opportunity to question them on that subject.
 
Turtle said:
Political Correctness & Blame culture: We have been through a dark phase (particularly in education) when everybody was 'special in their own way' and not being good at something meant the fault lay 'in the system.' streaming was scrapped by many schools as 'elitist' and millions of youngsters were not prepared for the real world. While we were at it, by laying the emphasis on the system and not individual, we scrapped the idea of personal responsibility and self-determination. Too many people were given too many excuses to sit on the arses feeling sorry for themselves rather than getting their act together and making a go of things. This manifests itself anywhere where an excuse can be made.
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Hello,

You're ignoring all of Bourdieu & Passeron's work and that is rather sad especially in times like these.
Thank you for the irony.
 
Sean Moran said:
Glad to hear that The Real Camera Shop was unharmed. What about the two Leica shops in St Anne's arcade and Barton arcade?

Sean (only back in Tipperary a few days after a very pleasant visit to Manchester)
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David Stephens (leica Showroom) is fine. Went over after work for a chat and all is well. Same with Steve at SD cameras (in Barton Arcade). The only Camera shop that was attacked was the Jessops by the town hall which looked ransacked this morning although no where near as bad as what they did to cash generators on Oldham Street which was very badly damaged
 
Thanks for the update

Thanks for the update

Thanks for that, Chris. It's great to see that the camera community is sticking together in these tough times.

I wonder if there were any Leicas out on the streets. I'm not sure that I would have been out taking photographs had the kerfuffle started whilst I was still in Manchester. Keep safe, Manchester photographic posse.

All the best,

Seán in Tipperary.
 
Blaming a lack of education or the 'wealth gap' is a leap too far for me.

The looters are doing this because they are, generally speaking, stupid and lazy.

Too stupid and lazy to understand it's not that hard to earn a reasonable salary. That earning loads of cash isn't all it's cracked up to be, and that, by their actions, they have ruined any chance of a 'decent' job they claim they want.

These people are 'the poor'.
Poor, not necessarily in the fiscal sense, but spiritually, morally and educationally. As a person brought up on welfare, in a large 'broken' family I had many of the excuses the looters do, but took a different path - as did 99% of the people I grew up with. I'm defiantly nothing special, but I made different choices to these losers.

Don't make excuses for them - doing so you degrade the choices of 'decent' people who haven't played the 'victim card'.
 
From what I gather from CNN, is it not "gangs" doing this? Organized gangs?

If so, then, Britain has been behind for sometime whilst treating photographers like the terrorists that are now rioting, IMO.:(

Maybe this is an opportunity for photographers to make a difference with their photos. ???
 
scarletfawth said:
Blaming a lack of education or the 'wealth gap' is a leap too far for me.

The looters are doing this because they are, generally speaking, stupid and lazy.

Too stupid and lazy to understand it's not that hard to earn a reasonable salary. That earning loads of cash isn't all it's cracked up to be, and that, by their actions, they have ruined any chance of a 'decent' job they claim they want.
...
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Yes, but its amazing how many of the desirable traits you have listed are, in part, learnt along the way. I do not think every one of us is programmed from birth to operate up to our limits. We find those through being pushed, sometimes getting our noses blunted and sometimes feeling the exhilaration of achievement beyond our expectations. That can come of necessity, but also through a good upbringing and education. I am not one for making excuses for people of this kind, but its important to acknowledge a relationship between the 'orrible people they are and how they came to be that way. Thats not excusing them, but perhaps trying to explain them, which are two very different things. The latter is important if this sort of thing is to be prevented in future.

One could argue its already too late for the people undertaking this sort of activity, but maybe their children can be prevented from following in their footsteps. I can't say I am optimistic, however. As for what you do with people that behave this way, well, its a good job I am not a judge with a free reign.

This event has shown what a severe problem we have with people of this ilk by virtue of so many of them congregating in one place at one time right under the nose of the world. Rather than good people being fobbed off when victimised by violent/vandalising/criminal youths (the line once used by a former government was that public perceptions of a welling 'yob youth' were out of kilter with reality) one can't help suspect that these riots will subtly or not so subtly bring about a dramatic change in the manner in which such problems are tackled on a smaller scale. perhaps this is what it took....
 
"Photography General Interest Neat Photo stuff NOT particularly about Rangefinders."


Not particularly about photography at all.
 
I heard a completely unsubstantiated and almost certainly untrue rumour that quite a bit of Leica gear was stollen from a store in London during the riots and that the thieves excused their actions on the basis that Leicas should not only be for 'rich toffs'.

Problem solved.
 
scarletfawth said:
Blaming a lack of education or the 'wealth gap' is a leap too far for me.

The looters are doing this because they are, generally speaking, stupid and lazy.

Too stupid and lazy to understand it's not that hard to earn a reasonable salary.
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Uh, what?

Maybe things are temporarily better in the UK because of the "welfare state" that so many seem to hate, but believe me there are powerful forces at work to make sure you are pulled down to our (US) level. Soon you will be expected to be grateful for a job at Walmart or its Brit equivalent.

I don't see decent jobs for old or young here in the US. Is it that much better in Britain? I have no doubt that the young thugs there are "confused", but at least one was reported by Reuters to have said "We got the idea from the bankers". That sounds about right to me.

I am a college educator, and frankly I don't know what tell young people. Our society cares nothing about them or their future. They are idiots to take out loans to get "training" for jobs that will likely disappear. Then they will be told to spend more money to "retrain".

It's enough to make you want to burn something down.

Now before some says "But what if they burn down YOUR house?" let me state that I am no bleeding heart, I think that anyone has the right to protect themselves, their loved ones, and even their property, with deadly force if need be. That does not mean I do not understand an ugly tragedy that is evolving rapidly.

Randy
 
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