London Riots

When you're at the sharp end, be it commanding soldiers or teaching rough inner-city kids, you quite quickly learn to distinguish between the people with genuine disadvantages, who are struggling to overcome them, and the lazy little sods who have learned to work the system. If you don't, you won't last long. I've never commanded soldiers, but in the 1970s I taught in the roughest school in Bristol, Bishop Road. Some of the boys who were smart enough or diligent enough joined the soldiery, so I saw them before Turtle did, but some couldn't make it into the army because they were too stupid and undisciplined.

No-one who has been in either Turtle's situation or mine is necessarily a bleeding heart, but we do have some knowledge whereof we speak. There are good kids from bad homes, and bad kids from good homes (you get them in Eton too) but a 'one size fits all' solution never worrks, whether it's "poor diddums" or hanging-and-flogging.

ALL research of which I am aware suggests that greater inequality translates into more social unrest. The rest is just statistical variation and window dressing.

Cheers,

R.
 
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I'm not sure I'd know where to begin in replying to the above but wil throw a couple of thoughts out there.

I'm no bleeding heart. At least the rioters were not armed to the teeth.

I think you are misinformed about people hating the 'welfare state'. Most people I know, of all political persuasions, fully support it in principle. They just argue about the quantity of service delivery and how much it costs them through tax.

Unfortunately education has become big business in the US and I find that a terrible shame. Its slowly heading that way in the UK and it relates rather strongly to the point above.

I don't think that many of the looters are much worse off in the run up to this event than they were before. I suspect rather a lot of them were criminals or social parasites long before the economic problems hit hard. While I think there is much merit in discussing causes, I think there is great danger in handing the perpetrators excuses, which I think Zauhar's post comes close to doing. Its just too easy to blame other people. Certainly for the schoolteacher who just attended court, his excuses would be interesting to hear.
 
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Judge it how you want but when a section of society revolts at this level there is a problem somewhere at the core of it and sixteen thousand police on the streets of London is merely capping the volcano.
 
Roger,
I had been drafting a post on this topic, and despite re-working it a couple of times, I was having difficulty honing it to my satisfaction. Then I glanced back at RFF and saw that your post had, in the meantime, rendered my intended post virtually superfluous. As so often, you have summed things up concisely, and with great lucidity - thanks.
 
Recently I've begun to wonder whether freedom really is as desirable as we in the western world (and elsewhere) think it is.

Aren't there far too many people who just can't deal with so much freedom?
 
zauhar said:
Uh, what?

Maybe things are temporarily better in the UK because of the "welfare state" that so many seem to hate, but believe me there are powerful forces at work to make sure you are pulled down to our (US) level. Soon you will be expected to be grateful for a job at Walmart or its Brit equivalent.

I don't see decent jobs for old or young here in the US. Is it that much better in Britain? I have no doubt that the young thugs there are "confused", but at least one was reported by Reuters to have said "We got the idea from the bankers". That sounds about right to me.

I am a college educator, and frankly I don't know what tell young people. Our society cares nothing about them or their future. They are idiots to take out loans to get "training" for jobs that will likely disappear. Then they will be told to spend more money to "retrain".

It's enough to make you want to burn something down.

Now before some says "But what if they burn down YOUR house?" let me state that I am no bleeding heart, I think that anyone has the right to protect themselves, their loved ones, and even their property, with deadly force if need be. That does not mean I do not understand an ugly tragedy that is evolving rapidly.

Randy
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Dear Randy,

Quite.

Incidentally, Wal-Mart owns Asda in the UK: predictably, a very similar sort of store.

As for Thardy, "Photography General Interest Neat Photo stuff NOT particularly about Rangefinders. . . . Not particularly about photography at all."

Well, who are we relying upon to buy cameras? Or who are we hoping will NOT smash photographers' cameras ('over their heads' for the more excitable correspondents)? Or steal the cameras out of the shops?

Your comment comes parlous close the the infamous Maggon statement: "There is no such thing as society." Those of us who believe that there is such a thing as society, and that future generations have a right (and indeed a duty) to know about it though photographs and honest reportage, will disagree with you.

Because either there is a free press (and free photography), or there isn't. You can't decently bury your head in the sand. This IS about photography, because photography is about life, unless you confine yourself to swans-and-sunsets and which version Summicron is best.

Cheers,

R.
 
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Turtle said:
Perhaps you can explain?
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As english is not my first language I'd rather let specialists translate the concepts of these important sociologists. However I'll try to enlight you with the basics.

You talk about people who, you dare pretend, actually prefer doing nothing and sit on there arses instead of doing something, meaning finding work or working.

Well I don't agree when you suggest that it is a question of self-determination. And this has been discussed and proven in Les Héritiers, by Pierre Bourdieu, 1964.
Now, I believe in the human being capable of doing great things, any human being. But, the truth is that all people, in our absurd society are crushed by a social-determinism that should be understood.
The numbers are eloquent and quite depressing.
Depending on your family background, your parents' situation, their parents' situation, you have either great chances to make it through highschool and college, and eventually have a fulfilling job, or not. Which rapidly puts YOU, that brand new baby marvel of the world, in a box on which are stamped in bold and irritating letters, your narrowing possibilities. They are unlikely to succeed from the start. Good luck beating these odds, some do, most don't.

I condemn the looting, the beatings, the destruction, of course. Still, I understand why would such people act that desperately (they probably have no idea why they act like that for the most part).
I wouldn't steal or destroy. I did not. Even living in a rough neighborhood in which all my friends are currently unemployed or in prison. I went to college and had 2 masters degree. Thanks to my family background mostly....

In France, a lot of people are just waiting for the riots to rise again, it's necessary and will happen, even if it is not used politically (which in my opinion is at the same time, dumb and beautiful).
 
diagularax said:
Judge it how you want but when a section of society revolts at this level there is a problem somewhere at the core of it and sixteen thousand police on the streets of London is merely capping the volcano.
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Amen.

I want to stress I am not on the side of the looters, any more than I am on the side of a vicious dog that attacks at random. But I DO understand that someone made the dog that way, by abuse or neglect or both.

Humans need love and role models in equal degree, and those are both in short supply.

Some love of God wouldn't hurt either. I also see that in short supply.

Randy
 
zauhar said:
Amen.

I want to stress I am not on the side of the looters, any more than I am on the side of a vicious dog that attacks at random. But I DO understand that someone made the dog that way, by abuse or neglect or both.

Humans need love and role models in equal degree, and those are both in short supply.

Some love of God wouldn't hurt either. I also see that in short supply.

Randy
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When I was young I indulged in some behaviour that I'm not proud of ... but looking back my reactions were symptomatic of a bad family environment and a need to express my dissatisfaction and anger in whatever way I could.

We really need to understand the bigger picture here!
 
We have become too selfish and greedy and the society we have created has bred the people who are doing these terrible things on British streets - which I totally condemn.
 
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Are you really suggesting that everyone wants to get out there and do a hard days work and there are not those who would rather, well, not bother?

I am not suggesting that their socio-economic origins have nothing to do with this end state - quite the contrary - but this is the end state in some cases. I am not daring to pretend at all. I genuinely believe that some go out of their way to milk the support of the social system for all it is worth. Innumerable sociobiological studies show that this is a very well established strategy in many species.



elude said:
As english is not my first language I'd rather let specialists translate the concepts of these important sociologists. However I'll try to enlight you with the basics.

You talk about people who, you dare pretend, actually prefer doing nothing and sit on there arses instead of doing something, meaning finding work or working.....
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zauhar said:
Amen.

I want to stress I am not on the side of the looters, any more than I am on the side of a vicious dog that attacks at random. But I DO understand that someone made the dog that way, by abuse or neglect or both.

Humans need love and role models in equal degree, and those are both in short supply.

Some love of God wouldn't hurt either. I also see that in short supply.

Randy
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Maybe the current government agrees with you so are handling the situation with kid gloves, or perhaps all the leadership that ran the gauntlet at Northern Island retired.
 
I think you're right Roger. It's interesting that the official definition of poverty is changing; I attended a talk from a leading Australian social policy researcher about the shift in public policy to a new definition of "having substantially less of the things that most people possess or have access to in a society" - including broadband internet, let alone a roof over their head!
 
I'm still a bit concerned about my aunt. She lives just off the main road in Enfield (Hartford Road), near the swimming pool. Spoke to her and she said so far so good. I hope it stays that way.

In Nottingham, there were some troubles day before yesterday (but not sure where exactly). Today, I was in the University Mosque for the Ramadan prayer. We were told not to go alone near/through city centre at that time (after 11:30 pm). Fortunately, I live in Beeston, far away from the City centre. :)
 
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Rayt said:
Theses youths may not be Egyptians or Libyans but are disaffected nevertheless. Don't brand them all as criminals because of the looting. The Brits did support Arab Spring didn't they?
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My mama always said "You'll be known by the company you keep." I've always found that to be quite valid.

If these hoods (mis-directed, disenfranchised or whatever's PC youth's ) don't want to be classified as rioters and thieves they'd best be staying away from such actions.

Reminds me of the Watts riots of 65.
 
OMG...its really sad to see this happening in a country deem as civilised...i will never thought such things would happen in a country like Great Britain.

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/video--injured-boy-in-riots-mugged.html

Where did all their right learnings in school gone to?

Who would have thought that something happened in Indonesia many years back would happen to Britain now. Its not something against the government but to the innocent...something even more condemn compared to 3rd world countries who fought the government and military for liberation...

And seriously i do not agree that resorting to barbarian acts just becos the society forced them to is CORRECT...its just selfish and excuse finding...there are more pathetic countries where the citizens are only living on nothing more than a meal...and these do not happen....
 
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