gdmcclintock
Well-known
Civil unrest has nothing to do with freedom, but with the lack of freedom.
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N
Nikon Bob
Guest
That is basically my thought also. The only addition being not one problem but many different contributing factors coming to a head after a long incubation period. After the immediate task of bringing the situation under control I wonder if there is the will to deal meaningfully with the complex problems that caused the riots. I hope they don't settle for just putting the lid on the situation and leave the pot to bubble till it boils over again at some future point in time. I am deeply saddened that this is happening in England but I believe could happen in any Western Industrialized Society today.
Bob
Spyro
Well-known
Like the olympic games for example.
Just saying.
Although I absolutely hate the olympics and everything they stand for.
Ranchu
Veteran
Agree 100% now that you mention it. People are deprived of their freedom as punishment every day, anyway. Perhaps he was thinking of depriving some people of their freedom preemptively? Just to be safe?
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Austerby
Well-known
Things like this have always happened in Great Britain - ok so the motivation behind the latest riots is different from the Toxteth riots in the 80's to the Gordon riots in the 1840s but sudden, extreme, domestic violence on city streets is not new.
We have been good at portraying ourselves as being amongst the leaders of the civilised world and in many respects I would defend our position there, alongside many other countries. However, there is a strong culture of force and aggression inherent in the British culture - which when directed and focussed properly becomes powerful (think of all the battles we've won, whether in defence or offence) but when uncontrolled produces danger in our streets and at home.
It's this that I see as a fundamental part of the problem, not a wealth gap or education gap or opportunity gap which I see as something that exacerbates and gives a cause to unleash this underlying violence and disorder.
All that can be done is to mitigate its presence as it is not going to go away.
nb For those who've speculated on the stupidity and ignorance of the rioters, the UK papers are now reporting on the identies and occupations of the looters going through the courts - interesting to see occupations such as Primary School Assistant, Leisure Centre worker mentioned - these are not stupid or ignorant individuals who you would expect to exploit society yet when the opportunity arose they took it.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/10/london-riots-school-assistant-pleads-guilty
Schlapp
Well-known
Yes, nice article and puts forward a well thought through argument of the state of society we have and the results of it. Again, I don't condone any of the looters etc.
I did articulate my thoughts on what underlies society as it is today - but for some reason it was 'moderated'. No complaints but just bewildered.
elude
Some photographer
It's not that bad, according to these pictures.
kehng
Established
It's amazing today reading that amongst those being prosecuted for looting in Tottenham included a "Youth care worker" and a graphic designer, a 31 year old teacher's aide in Clapham and an 11 year old who stole a £50 garbage bin in Essex. Disaffected impoverished youth... sure, maybe a lot of them.. but what are these other idiots doing? I feel that the petition to deny offenders benefits for life (up to 80000 of the 100000 required to make the politicians vote on the issue) is misguided. Shaming them in public with harsh penalties should be enough.
Schlapp
Well-known
I agree.
Having said that we also need to address the conditions of society at all levels that has help make these idiots the people they are
Michael Markey
Veteran
I can`t add anything useful to this thread ...all the arguments have been well covered but here are some pics posted on a local Manchester site.
My daughter reports that all is quiet there today due to heavy rain and lots of police.
http://www.viceland.com/wp/2011/08/manchester-night-salford-riots-arndale-looting/
The comments which follow the pictures are rather strong ...
My daughter reports that all is quiet there today due to heavy rain and lots of police.
http://www.viceland.com/wp/2011/08/manchester-night-salford-riots-arndale-looting/
The comments which follow the pictures are rather strong ...
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Dr Gaspar
Established
That was hilarious.
zauhar
Veteran
Roger, that was well-put. We are all part of (and dependent on) the broader society, whether we like to admit it or not.
I and I knew the UK had been infected by a walmart-in-disguise, couldn't remember the name.
Randy
Tompas
Wannabe Künstler
I did not even express a ready-made opinion but merely my doubts.
You really think the rioters and looters in Britain protest against a lack of freedom? That Britain's society is so repressive that they are practically forced to burn down their neighbors houses? You may have an opinion very different from mine.
These people are misusing their freedom, as many others all over the world are, too. I wonder whether there is something as 'too much freedom' -- as so many people can't seem to deal with it.
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scarletfawth
Established
Is a job at Asda (UK Walmart) really that bad? If circumstances dictated, I'd work there.
Some unemployed people think that some jobs are below them. Some would rather steal or be on the dole rather than clean toilets, or stack beans. Some would rather nip into town, smash a window and take home a HD Ready TV for free. It would take two weeks of stacking beans to earn that or ten minutes of smash and grab.
I for one won't be analysing why these people have resorted to such actions. They are poor in spirit and, at least a significant number of them, will always be so. The best we can hope to achieve is keeping them in check with harsh punishment and the intolerance of the silent majority.
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Peter_Jones
Well-known
Lack of moral fibre - check out this disgusting behaviour
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW0356brnrE&feature=youtu.be
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW0356brnrE&feature=youtu.be
zauhar
Veteran
Yes, a job there really is that bad, assuming it's like the American version. You can' support a family on the wage. The *******s in the US have even tutored their employees how to apply for food stamps. It's gotten bad enough here that Ikea is now outsourcing to the US, we've become a "low-wage" country.
Americans as a group are so beaten down that they have the mentality of slaves. It has taken many years of concerted socializing to achieve this, but we are pretty much zombies at this point.
(I can't pin down the exact turning point - anyone know when the "Personnel" department became "Human Resources"? No difference in function, just in name and message - to wit, you are no longer a man or woman with a soul, you are a resource to be used. )
Of course, even zombies get cold and hungry. The trouble is, when they reach the breaking point they will be just like these young thugs - not lashing out at the people at the top who put them where they are, but rather at their neighbor who is scraping by just like them.
Randy
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Severity of punishment is never a substitute for certainty of punishment. Many would risk the death penalty if there were only a one in a million chance of being caught, but few would risk a $100 fine for parking if they knew, without question, that they'd be caught.
And yes, McJobs probably are that bad, without job security and in a situation of near slavery: "Do exactly what we say, and don't make any waves, or we'll fire you, and you will have no recourse." Dignity and freedom mean quite a lot to many people.
Why are you unwilling to analyze what has happened, and why it has happened? Is it that you might not like some of the answers? Of course, the answer is, you'll never know, unless you start thinking about it.
I've been on the dole twice. The first time was for a few weeks, just after I left university. My boss wanted to be a millionaire by the time he was 30. He was 29. Both I and the girl I replaced were of the opinion he was too dangerous to be around. We were right: within the year, he was in jail. The second time was a (very) few months: I forget exactly how it came about, or how long it lasted, some 35 years on.
Both times, it was sufficiently unpleasant that I've managed to avoid it ever since. There were some good people at the Labour Exchange, but there were also lots of arrogant, stupid, officious petty functionaries who made it abundantly clear that they considered themselves infinitely superior to me because They Had A Job, and I didn't.
Now, I had a degree and (by the second time, anyway) work experience and the chance of finding a worthwhile job that paid reasonably well, so I could treat them with the contempt they deserved (though not to their faces: I needed the money). Even so, as a result of my experiences I can easily see how someone who left school at 16 and who has repeatedly been told, explicitly and implicitly, that he is worthlesss, would want to strike back against what he perceives as 'the system'. If he doesn't believe he'll ever get a job anyway, what has he to lose?
It's a question of empathy. "There, but for fortune, go you, go I." Anyone who can't see that might benefit from 6 months on the dole in a council flat on a 'sink' estate, with no access to savings or to rich friends to bail them out, buy them dinner, etc.
Finally, as has frequently been pointed out, how much have these riots actually cost? As much as the 'financial crisis', caused by stupid, greedy bankers and banks 'too big to fail'? Hardly! So why aren't the bankers in the dock in these 24-hour courts? They've looted and destroyed far more wealth than the rioters have: billions, not millions.
Cheers,
R.
N
Nikon Bob
Guest
Roger
Very well said.
Bob
Very well said.
Bob
Michael Markey
Veteran
Yes well said Roger but let us not forget also our MPs .
They are currently fired up by moral indignation but were themselves ,less than twelve months ago, raiding the nations cash by fiddling their expenses.
A lack of moral fibre all round and a failure of authority.
They are currently fired up by moral indignation but were themselves ,less than twelve months ago, raiding the nations cash by fiddling their expenses.
A lack of moral fibre all round and a failure of authority.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Michael,
No question there! It's the same 'entitlement' or even 'looting' mentality: "The money is there, and I am somehow mysteriously entitled to it." Worse still "to my share of it". What 'share'?
But the previous post was pretty long already. If I'd added in your indisputable point, even fewer people would have read it to the end. As it is, I suspect some will try to rebut what they think I've said, or what they wanted me to say, or something they want to rebut whether I said it or not, regardless of what I actually said.
Cheers,
R.