alistair.o
Well-known
This thread appears to me to be heading to a very 'comfortable conclusion' i.e. in general the 'lower classes' are lazy gits and their kids are feral and they did bad (Oh and a few toffs did bad too)
Thus, consciences nicely washed and rinsed we can all leave the 'lower classes' to their own societal vagaries - Yes? No?
I heard a politician actually stating that the riots in the 80's had a purpose and cause but the recent one's were pointless and totally different in manner etc! Amazing, Amazing! How do they think? They assume that the framework of British society is static i.e. moral with a good protestant work ethic and above all else purposeful. How out of touch can these people be?
As for the Eastern European influx, my experience and it is quite extensive is that they group (especially the Polish) and get all they can from the state and critiscise the English. They have their own shops, their own hairdressers etc etc. Now before people point out such groups as the Turks and Pakistanis (for arguement sake) who do the same, let me remind one and all that these Eastern Europeans are Europeans ie part of the community already.
Thus, consciences nicely washed and rinsed we can all leave the 'lower classes' to their own societal vagaries - Yes? No?
I heard a politician actually stating that the riots in the 80's had a purpose and cause but the recent one's were pointless and totally different in manner etc! Amazing, Amazing! How do they think? They assume that the framework of British society is static i.e. moral with a good protestant work ethic and above all else purposeful. How out of touch can these people be?
As for the Eastern European influx, my experience and it is quite extensive is that they group (especially the Polish) and get all they can from the state and critiscise the English. They have their own shops, their own hairdressers etc etc. Now before people point out such groups as the Turks and Pakistanis (for arguement sake) who do the same, let me remind one and all that these Eastern Europeans are Europeans ie part of the community already.
Ade-oh
Well-known
You sound like Edward VIII: 'Something must be done!', and there's a familiar fascist tone to your subsequent remarks too. You need to check out a few Marxist and Neo-Marxist theoreticians about the problem of the lumpen proletariat ('The “dangerous class”, [lumpenproletariat] the social scum, that passively rotting mass thrown off by the lowest layers of the old society, may, here and there, be swept into the movement by a proletarian revolution; its conditions of life, however, prepare it far more for the part of a bribed tool of reactionary intrigue.' - as Marx describes it in the Communist Manifesto).
Maybe something should be done, but wringing our hands and wondering what bribes we can give them to stop them being nasty again isn't it, pretending that these people represented any kind of protest against anything much more than an inability to instantaneously gratify their material desires is beyond pathetic.
alistair.o
Well-known
Your remark regarding 'Fascist tone' is worthy of the of the PC brigade who are forever making people look over their shoulder before speaking that which they believe and witness.
As for bribes I have not mentioned such and would never do so as they are merely short term palliatives. The problems are obvious and run deep. They are the making of a sick society that has soaked up wealth as the be all and end all - the mantra of the modern Britain. The majority have never had it cross their minds to ask "What do I need rather than what do I want".
Last night Kelvin McKenzie was on my screen pontificating about moral decay in Britain and him who was at the helm of one of the worst tabloids (The Sun) for promoting wealth and image above reality e.g page 3 - girls need to look like this before they are worthy etc . Britain has real problems and has had them for years. Britain has also many people who spout quotes from Marx and those who mistakenely quote Adam Smith. Britain needs people who are honest not intellectual per se because intellectualism in the history of Britain has achieved virtually bugger all to bridge the class divide. Maybe your one of those who don't want it bridged, maybe you don't want 'them' to get too close.
scarletfawth
Established
Don't you just hate it when someone sums up you're view so articulately that all you can do is nod dumbly and I say "I agree with him".
(Nod) I agree with Ade-oh.
ashfaque
Learning
Many of the posts are quite rightly leaning towards economic situations [one of the major reasons]. So I'd like to hear from any economist specialised in 'Public finance', and 'household economics'. If you can post references to some academic articles that would be even better.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Alistair,
That's not the impression I'm getting. In fact I'm not getting the impression of a conclusion at all.
Cheers,
R.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Listen to the most recent 'More or Less' on BBC Radio 4:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qshd
It's produced in association with the Open University and can point you towards to some interesting research.
Cheers,
R.
alistair.o
Well-known
Roger, I am very pleased that it hasn't been allowed to end in some kind of airbrushed unreality. It would appear that many do not see a link of any kind between what was clearly lawlessness and gratuitous violence and the home lives and politics of the last 20 / 25 years in this country. It is not resolved in any way whatsoever and to appease the populous by handing out 4 year prison terms to two young men who did not even leave their homes is just an indication of the mad baying mind sets of politicians and people.
Ade-oh
Well-known
Alternatively: leftist welfarism has, for the last fifty years, systematically infantilised the socially and economically disadvantaged, and has attempted to relieve them of any sense of responsibility for their current plight and their future existence. This has left many members of these groups prone to making stupid, irresponsible choices, reassured by the knowledge that those choices will have little real impact on their lives, no matter how much damage they do to others. Four year sentences for those seeking to mobilise violence using social media will have the effect of focusing their minds, and the minds of those who are thinking like them, on the consequences of their actions.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Alternatively: unbridled capitalism has, for the last twenty years, systematically infantilised the financially overprivileged, and has attempted to relieve them of any sense of responsibility for their current impunity and their future existence. This has left many members of these groups prone to making stupid, irresponsible choices, reassured by the knowledge that those choices will have little real impact on their lives, no matter how much damage they do to others.
Surprising how few words you need to change... Bankers, anyone?
Cheers,
R.
Ade-oh
Well-known
Most amusing... next time I see a banker torching a branch of 'JD Sports' and looting trainers I'll tell him you're on the case.
N
Nikon Bob
Guest
It could be as simple as unbridled capitalism needs and systematically encourages dumb irresponsible consumers for it to survive. Bankers and other assorted financial geniuses seem to regularly come up with ways to allow people to get further into debt to keep the economy moving and profits increasing. The classic and last straw before the last financial melt down was to allow people, who should have had enough sense not to take, mortgages that they should never have been qualified for in the first place. Neither side has any sense of responsibility. It is a symbiotic relationship.
Bob
Bob
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Most amusing... next time I see a banker torching a branch of 'JD Sports' and looting trainers I'll tell him you're on the case.
Next time I see a small-time looter causing a financial crash that costs billions, not a few million, I'll tell him you're on the case...
Cheers,
R.
Ade-oh
Well-known
Well, if he or she is doing it within a criminally lax regulatory framework set up by 'liberal, 'progressive', 'egalitarian' governments, drunk on taxing bank profits to fund ludicrous social engineering projects, they'll probably tell you to mind your own business...
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Bob,
Very true indeed.
But of course, there's always the viewpoint of "My mind is made up. Do not confise me with the facts."
Cheers,
R.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Ade-oh
Well-known
Touché, Monsieur! Although, more accurately, I very strongly believe that individuals need to face up to the consequences of their own actions and/or beliefs, regardless of what political labels they apply to themselves.
N
Nikon Bob
Guest
Well now, you are talking the enablers here. In other words the political system of a country not any particular party as both sides of the political spectrum have created this "criminally lax frame work" in which both sides, consumers and financial, operate. Just because you have the opportunity to make use of this "criminally lax framework" you can always choose to consume responsibly and the other side of the coin to lend responsibly. Both sides are too greedy, being human, to exercise this option and show some self restraint. Everyone of all stripes has contributed their fair share to the house of cards.
Bob
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
That is a very naive and dangerous notion. There are no consequences of an action or belief which are not a matter of policy and politics.
wgerrard
Veteran
I've been skimming through this thread, without reading it thoroughly.
But, most often, when I hear that assertion, it's made by people who clearly don't feel any sense of concern or responsibility for people they haven't met. I.e., a contemporary version of "Let them eat cake".
I'm not brushing you with that broad swipe, but the statement is really a bit obvious. Who else is more responsible for our behavior than ourselves?
But, if we refuse to act, especially when some kind of action -- even voting -- is within our reach, then, as you say, we are responsible for the consequences of our un-action.
My thinking on the UK riots is that we do not really need to apply economic and sociological theory to them. History provides many examples of what people will do when they live in similar social positions and take offense at some single action of authority. It's how humans behave.
I'm not excusing anyone from the consequences of breaking the law. I am just trying to illustrate that we are also responsible for the consequences of our own inaction.